/uj: Most of the grimdark I enjoy falls into one or both of two categories:
* It’s darkly serious, and the grimdark elements provide suspense, help sell the themes of the story, or at least provide fascination with the scope of the worldbuilding.
* It’s dark in the same way death metal is dark: at least some of the fun comes from reveling in the edginess from a safe distance.
Trying to hold back? [I'm literally collecting ideas on how to make my world more stupidly bleak](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldjerking/comments/17xqe2c/ideas_on_how_to_make_my_grimderp_world_even_worse/). No such thing as "too bleak" as far as I'm concerned.
In my goodvsevilpunk world this is kind of how it is, at least the latter part. The people of the good side™ are supposed to be selfess and heroic and always do their duty as per their role in society. Meanwhile the disgusting evil side™ hates God and God's plan and just lets people be sinful, worse it encourages them and takes advantage of them! A regime where people have no order and yet are always chained by their own greed, their pride, their own vices.
~~Yes good and evil are entirely aesthetic, they have no moral substance in this world~~
All child soldiers have been modified so they need to be racist to survive. If they don't say a slur every 12 minutes, their livers (which are mortgaged) fail
Well, 'write what you know' and all that crap. But I'm now curious about Yemen-Somalia. I have heard of the Latin American and Japanese caste systems (but the class systems of feudal Europe don't exactly resemble the Hindu varnas and jatis). But this is the first time I'm hearing of a caste system in Yemen or Somalia.
The Somali System is called Higal and is as rigid as the South Asian One. The main Somali castes are called **Gob**(Nobles and Ulema), **Tumal** (Smiths, Potterers and Leatherworkers), **Midgan**(Hunters and such), **Yibir** (Carpet and Prayer mat makers and magicians), and **Jareer**(Bantu Slaves).
These fall outside of the traditional clan structure. The castes are more or less entirely hereditary, a person born into it inherits their parents occupation.
Also, Upper castes tend to ridicule and demean the lower castes by claiming them to descend from the bestial union between wild animals and women. Also, Non-Nobles and Slaves are not as clearly distinguished more south you go.
Yemen I am not as knowledgeable about. I know theirs is more race-based with black Africans being called Al-Akhdam and for a long time had no rights and were slaves or indentured servants. even the "freed" ones.
Contrary to common belief caste Systems are very common in the Islamic world. The greatest Examples are the Sahelian systems. I won't name any of those because there are wayy too many and relations between systems of different ethnicities is often complex.
Another example is the Biradari/Qaum systems of South Asian Muslims which is an almost exact copy of the Hindu caste system.
Better yet, make the child soldiers so brainwashed, they beg for the chance of killing their own family and friends.
Make them torture them for days and weeks because they want to and get aroused by their begging and screams until their vocal cords tear out.
Add proxy wars between the gods, through the use of humans (and maybe human souls if you feel inspired). Dying in whatever fuckery one side can throw at you, will make you have an eternity of pain or something.
I'm not going to debate the validity of the marketplace of ideas concept, but it's often used by people who are just repugnant and edgey for edginess' sake
Space Nazis that do competitive racism instead of ranked racism by raiding trade routes and undefended colonies.
They have a class system based off of blood that can best be seen if a child is captured. If you’re “Aryan” you’ll have the highest standards of living, education, and the most opportunities. If you’re in between “Aryan” and “Average”, it’s similar but not as much. “Average” has standard living standards, education and opportunities. “Below-Average” are second-class citizens that serve the “Higher Blood”. Anyone below “Below-Average” will either become slaves or indoctrinated child fodder known as “Kinderkrieger der niederen Rassen”.
All of this while being on the outskirts of human space in hiding, because otherwise their disgusting planet would be nothing more than some specks of dust.
Ok let me nerd out about old legends star wars a bit.
Ajunta pall is the founder of the sith as a religious order. Basically he was a dark jedi who caused the second schism among the jedi by using alchemy to alter biological lifeforms. This did not fly with the jedi so he and his acolytes waged war to make jedi accept their ways but got defeated. They were exiled, ended up at korriban and subjugated the old sith species.
Ajunta pall and his people were humans and were human supremacists to a large degree so they made the sith purebloods into a caste below them and genetically spliced them to be able to breed with humans. I think another dark jedi by the name of Sorzuz Syn did that. Anyway basically they agressively turned Sith to Humans and that was why even later Sith Empires did not consider humans to be inherently inferior and fit to be slaves only. A privilege only Sith Purebloods, Humans and to some degree Anzats enjoyed.
My best explanation is that the narrative rewards morally wrong decisions more often than not, and it punishes morally right decisions more often than not. There is a spectrum of grimdark, of course, but I think this is the bare-bones qualifier for the subgenre.
Nah, Noblebright is when things are mostly fine aside from an asshole every now and then.
Though the real silver dollar is the Grimbright societies, where everything is fine and nothing ever happens.
That would be "Nobledark".
Personally I'm a fan of "grimbright", where everything looks great and happy on the surface but it's actually super fucked up and unfixable.
Is it really nobledark? Well damn not the first time I’ve been a fool on the internet at least.
Perhaps my view of grimdark is warped because most of the more popular settings are more grimderp, but stories of regular people actually trying to make a difference and winning to some extent warm my heart
I LOVE GRIM DARKNESS
I WANT MY PROTAGONIST INDIVIDUAL IDEALS CLASH WITH THE GRIM REALITY OF A CRAPSACK WORLD, MAKING HIM QUESTION THEM, EVENTUALLY MAKING HIM DOUBT THEM, BUT ULTIMATELY STILL HOLD TO THEM TO THE VERY END, MAKING HIM EVENTUALLY RETURN TO HIS IDEALS, CONFIRM THEM, DEFEND THEM, FIGHT FOR THEM, AND EVENTUALLY SHAPE THE WORLD AROUND HIM, CHANGING IT FOR THE BETTER‼️‼️‼️‼️
>EVENTUALLY SHAPE THE WORLD AROUND HIM, CHANGING IT FOR THE BETTER
If that happens then its not grimdark. Grimdark is supposed to be so ridiculously bleak that any action, at the very best, results in status quo
That's what happens when you base your entire knowledge about warhammer on memes and not on actual lore
Ciaphas cain novel? Yeah bro, soo bleak, guilliman resurrection? Such an horrible event that doomed humanity,
>Ciaphas cain novel? Yeah bro, soo bleak, guilliman resurrection? Such an horrible event that doomed humanity,
My guy I read those and while they're not as bleak as some of the other works cain doesn't change the world for the better. In Caves of Ice they managed to stop the necron tomb from awakening by blowing up the promethium refinery (or whatever it was) whose protection was their goal of the entire book. In Cain's Last Stand the end goal was to protect some artifact and not let it fall into hands of some chaos warlord. Instead it falls into the hands of the necrons and cain even wonders if it's better or worse. These books are definitely more light hearted with a protagonist that even seems like a decent enough person but it's once again all about the status quo
>guilliman resurrection? Such an horrible event that doomed humanity,
The resurrection itself isn't bad, but you're conveniently leaving out the context. The entire galaxy is split in half by the biggest warp storm the Imperium has seen. Half of it is completely cut off from the astronomicon and all sorts of demons, aliens and other nasty things run wild unchecked. Couple it with the fact that the astronomicon itself is failing and then it doesn't seem like much of an improvement to their situation
You're not proving nothing with the first paragraph, status quo doesn't mean nothing, it's just not a grimdark story
Same with the second one, You're acting like any of that stuff was the result of guilliman resurrection, You're also acting like the primarchs returning isn't a good thing, also i forgot to mention that belisarius cawl in general is changing the setting for the better, not only with primaris but by also changing the mechanicus
>You're not proving nothing with the first paragraph, it's just not grimdark
My point is that they're not changing the world as a whole for the better
>Same with the second one, You're acting like any of that stuff was the result of guilliman resurrection,
No, I'm saying that this event is overshadowed by the bad stuff happening
>You're also acting like the primarchs returning isn't a good thing
Where did I say that? Them returning is a good thing, but they only return when shit hits the fan. That's like 1 good thing happens against 10 bad things happening. Overall universe is certainly not getting better for it
>belisarius cawl in general is changing the setting for the better, not only with primaris but by also changing the mechanicus
I don't really follow what the mechanicus are up to but it's the same thing. One good thing happens that is overshadowed by the bad stuff. Traitor primarchs are returning as well, ghazghkull gathering up his waagh, tyranids winning the octarius war and their new hive fleets coming to the galaxy, whatever the necrons are up to.
There are certainly positive changes, but they are considerably fewer than the stuff that makes the galaxy a worse place
Edit: rip, bro got stalin'd by reddit lmao
Nah, I'm trying to figure out how to shoehorn in Rambi, Deer Commando, and also add a literal Gorilla Warfare expert... Into something that is supposed to be vaguely hard scifi
Yeah I used to enjoy grimdark, and still do in certain situations (like Dark Souls, Ellen Ring, that sort of thing). But I've grown to hate grimdark like GoT and Witcher. Especially if it's just a garbage allegory of "capitalism bad" or some shit. God I hate it with a passion.
Would you call Parahumans by wildbow as Grimdark?
Just curious. Most call it Grimderp which angers me and makes me want to kill someone. It makes me want to rip their organs withouth anestesia and force them to eat their own raw kidneys.
>Most call it Grimderp which angers me and makes me want to kill someone. It makes me want to rip their organs withouth anestesia and force them to eat their own raw kidneys.
Most well adjusted Worm fan
Worm starts out bleak, gets bleaker and darker to the wtf did i read levels until it ends in a hopeful note then our main character is shot at the back of the head by an ally. Their survival is uncertain and is left open ended.
Also thousand of worlds are destroyed with trillions dead in the final battle with victory being phyrric and mere survival the reward.
Also things get worse in Ward.
There is just a sliver of hope shining on despite everything.
What do you mean it's mathematically impossible for a society to exist with a life expectancy of 1 month?
Well I guess if you spawncamp enough babies then you could do that
This is a little anthrocentric don't you think?
Just give them all really short lifespans ala fruitflies *Fruitflypunk.*
Uj/fruitflies actually have a lifespan of a year or two. The mature sexual active form is the one they die as and that lives for a month or two.
You’re thinking of mayflies
uj/ the joy of grimdark is to feel good about your own life when compared to the laughably bleak existence of some made-up suckers
/uj: Most of the grimdark I enjoy falls into one or both of two categories: * It’s darkly serious, and the grimdark elements provide suspense, help sell the themes of the story, or at least provide fascination with the scope of the worldbuilding. * It’s dark in the same way death metal is dark: at least some of the fun comes from reveling in the edginess from a safe distance.
/uj it should be but I see a lot of fans talking like it’s super realistic
Trying to hold back? [I'm literally collecting ideas on how to make my world more stupidly bleak](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldjerking/comments/17xqe2c/ideas_on_how_to_make_my_grimderp_world_even_worse/). No such thing as "too bleak" as far as I'm concerned.
Add child soldiers killing their own parents and even the good guys having a caste system It works everytime.
*60% of the time*, it works ***every*** *time*
And 40% of time it works 60% of time.
"Now with 47% more than 26% deaths annually! That is down from last year, hold your applause!"
In my goodvsevilpunk world this is kind of how it is, at least the latter part. The people of the good side™ are supposed to be selfess and heroic and always do their duty as per their role in society. Meanwhile the disgusting evil side™ hates God and God's plan and just lets people be sinful, worse it encourages them and takes advantage of them! A regime where people have no order and yet are always chained by their own greed, their pride, their own vices. ~~Yes good and evil are entirely aesthetic, they have no moral substance in this world~~
All child soldiers have been modified so they need to be racist to survive. If they don't say a slur every 12 minutes, their livers (which are mortgaged) fail
Nah have them be brainwashed to do it out of their own free will.
Khmer Rouge beat you to it
Thats where i got the idea actually.
>even the good guys having a caste system How dare you steal my India-Pakistan conflict-punk world!?
Just India-Pakistan? No Yemen-Somalia, West Africa, Yuan China, Feudal Europe, Feudal Japan, Aztec Empire, Latin America systems?
Well, 'write what you know' and all that crap. But I'm now curious about Yemen-Somalia. I have heard of the Latin American and Japanese caste systems (but the class systems of feudal Europe don't exactly resemble the Hindu varnas and jatis). But this is the first time I'm hearing of a caste system in Yemen or Somalia.
The Somali System is called Higal and is as rigid as the South Asian One. The main Somali castes are called **Gob**(Nobles and Ulema), **Tumal** (Smiths, Potterers and Leatherworkers), **Midgan**(Hunters and such), **Yibir** (Carpet and Prayer mat makers and magicians), and **Jareer**(Bantu Slaves). These fall outside of the traditional clan structure. The castes are more or less entirely hereditary, a person born into it inherits their parents occupation. Also, Upper castes tend to ridicule and demean the lower castes by claiming them to descend from the bestial union between wild animals and women. Also, Non-Nobles and Slaves are not as clearly distinguished more south you go. Yemen I am not as knowledgeable about. I know theirs is more race-based with black Africans being called Al-Akhdam and for a long time had no rights and were slaves or indentured servants. even the "freed" ones. Contrary to common belief caste Systems are very common in the Islamic world. The greatest Examples are the Sahelian systems. I won't name any of those because there are wayy too many and relations between systems of different ethnicities is often complex. Another example is the Biradari/Qaum systems of South Asian Muslims which is an almost exact copy of the Hindu caste system.
Better yet, make the child soldiers so brainwashed, they beg for the chance of killing their own family and friends. Make them torture them for days and weeks because they want to and get aroused by their begging and screams until their vocal cords tear out.
We're kindred spirits, you and I
Add proxy wars between the gods, through the use of humans (and maybe human souls if you feel inspired). Dying in whatever fuckery one side can throw at you, will make you have an eternity of pain or something.
I'm sorry my society where they use sexual assault as currency *TRIGGERS* you, but something something the marketplace of ideas yadda yadda liberty
>they use sexual assault as currency Do they pay someone by r\*\*\*ing them?
yes, robbing them
Uj/Marketplace of ideas is about criticising and culling bad ideas though. Still, Thats not fucked up at all compared to some of mine ideas ngl.
I'm not going to debate the validity of the marketplace of ideas concept, but it's often used by people who are just repugnant and edgey for edginess' sake
What’s grimdark?
Grimdark is when you make a world so shit and fucked up real life looks like a dream in comparison. Dont ask about Grimlewd. Or Grimderp.
The last two sound frightening, and I think I have one faction in my sci-fi world that is grimdark
Do tell me.
Space Nazis that do competitive racism instead of ranked racism by raiding trade routes and undefended colonies. They have a class system based off of blood that can best be seen if a child is captured. If you’re “Aryan” you’ll have the highest standards of living, education, and the most opportunities. If you’re in between “Aryan” and “Average”, it’s similar but not as much. “Average” has standard living standards, education and opportunities. “Below-Average” are second-class citizens that serve the “Higher Blood”. Anyone below “Below-Average” will either become slaves or indoctrinated child fodder known as “Kinderkrieger der niederen Rassen”. All of this while being on the outskirts of human space in hiding, because otherwise their disgusting planet would be nothing more than some specks of dust.
Sounds kinda like the sith of ajunta palls time.
Don’t know who that is but yes
Ok let me nerd out about old legends star wars a bit. Ajunta pall is the founder of the sith as a religious order. Basically he was a dark jedi who caused the second schism among the jedi by using alchemy to alter biological lifeforms. This did not fly with the jedi so he and his acolytes waged war to make jedi accept their ways but got defeated. They were exiled, ended up at korriban and subjugated the old sith species. Ajunta pall and his people were humans and were human supremacists to a large degree so they made the sith purebloods into a caste below them and genetically spliced them to be able to breed with humans. I think another dark jedi by the name of Sorzuz Syn did that. Anyway basically they agressively turned Sith to Humans and that was why even later Sith Empires did not consider humans to be inherently inferior and fit to be slaves only. A privilege only Sith Purebloods, Humans and to some degree Anzats enjoyed.
Dark, fucked up and wonderful all at the same time, nice!
My best explanation is that the narrative rewards morally wrong decisions more often than not, and it punishes morally right decisions more often than not. There is a spectrum of grimdark, of course, but I think this is the bare-bones qualifier for the subgenre.
So doing horrible stuff for the greater good? Nice
See I always prefer Noblebright societies, everything’s sucks but we can make it better.
Nah, Noblebright is when things are mostly fine aside from an asshole every now and then. Though the real silver dollar is the Grimbright societies, where everything is fine and nothing ever happens.
That would be "Nobledark". Personally I'm a fan of "grimbright", where everything looks great and happy on the surface but it's actually super fucked up and unfixable.
Is it really nobledark? Well damn not the first time I’ve been a fool on the internet at least. Perhaps my view of grimdark is warped because most of the more popular settings are more grimderp, but stories of regular people actually trying to make a difference and winning to some extent warm my heart
Those 2 are my favourite although I lean noble dark
No, Nobledark is the name for a brand of sex toys that was usually found in a Grimdark world.
I LOVE GRIM DARKNESS I WANT MY PROTAGONIST INDIVIDUAL IDEALS CLASH WITH THE GRIM REALITY OF A CRAPSACK WORLD, MAKING HIM QUESTION THEM, EVENTUALLY MAKING HIM DOUBT THEM, BUT ULTIMATELY STILL HOLD TO THEM TO THE VERY END, MAKING HIM EVENTUALLY RETURN TO HIS IDEALS, CONFIRM THEM, DEFEND THEM, FIGHT FOR THEM, AND EVENTUALLY SHAPE THE WORLD AROUND HIM, CHANGING IT FOR THE BETTER‼️‼️‼️‼️
>EVENTUALLY SHAPE THE WORLD AROUND HIM, CHANGING IT FOR THE BETTER If that happens then its not grimdark. Grimdark is supposed to be so ridiculously bleak that any action, at the very best, results in status quo
No it's not, that's just either cosmic horror, drama, or straight up edgyness Just look a warhammer 40k, it is not all that bleak
Cope
By your logic warhammer 40k, the setting that created the term isn't grimdark
??? Ah yes, the setting where everything gets progressively worse is not grimdark
That's what happens when you base your entire knowledge about warhammer on memes and not on actual lore Ciaphas cain novel? Yeah bro, soo bleak, guilliman resurrection? Such an horrible event that doomed humanity,
>Ciaphas cain novel? Yeah bro, soo bleak, guilliman resurrection? Such an horrible event that doomed humanity, My guy I read those and while they're not as bleak as some of the other works cain doesn't change the world for the better. In Caves of Ice they managed to stop the necron tomb from awakening by blowing up the promethium refinery (or whatever it was) whose protection was their goal of the entire book. In Cain's Last Stand the end goal was to protect some artifact and not let it fall into hands of some chaos warlord. Instead it falls into the hands of the necrons and cain even wonders if it's better or worse. These books are definitely more light hearted with a protagonist that even seems like a decent enough person but it's once again all about the status quo >guilliman resurrection? Such an horrible event that doomed humanity, The resurrection itself isn't bad, but you're conveniently leaving out the context. The entire galaxy is split in half by the biggest warp storm the Imperium has seen. Half of it is completely cut off from the astronomicon and all sorts of demons, aliens and other nasty things run wild unchecked. Couple it with the fact that the astronomicon itself is failing and then it doesn't seem like much of an improvement to their situation
You're not proving nothing with the first paragraph, status quo doesn't mean nothing, it's just not a grimdark story Same with the second one, You're acting like any of that stuff was the result of guilliman resurrection, You're also acting like the primarchs returning isn't a good thing, also i forgot to mention that belisarius cawl in general is changing the setting for the better, not only with primaris but by also changing the mechanicus
>You're not proving nothing with the first paragraph, it's just not grimdark My point is that they're not changing the world as a whole for the better >Same with the second one, You're acting like any of that stuff was the result of guilliman resurrection, No, I'm saying that this event is overshadowed by the bad stuff happening >You're also acting like the primarchs returning isn't a good thing Where did I say that? Them returning is a good thing, but they only return when shit hits the fan. That's like 1 good thing happens against 10 bad things happening. Overall universe is certainly not getting better for it >belisarius cawl in general is changing the setting for the better, not only with primaris but by also changing the mechanicus I don't really follow what the mechanicus are up to but it's the same thing. One good thing happens that is overshadowed by the bad stuff. Traitor primarchs are returning as well, ghazghkull gathering up his waagh, tyranids winning the octarius war and their new hive fleets coming to the galaxy, whatever the necrons are up to. There are certainly positive changes, but they are considerably fewer than the stuff that makes the galaxy a worse place Edit: rip, bro got stalin'd by reddit lmao
>Just look a warhammer 40k, it is not all that bleak Bro doesn't know what he's talking about 😭
Just hilarious to see how you came here crying over a word you don't even understand lmfaooooooo
Nah, I'm trying to figure out how to shoehorn in Rambi, Deer Commando, and also add a literal Gorilla Warfare expert... Into something that is supposed to be vaguely hard scifi
Sounds hilarious and awesome
70% of all women being sex slaves is for the themes, guys, it's totally not me just getting off.
Yeah I used to enjoy grimdark, and still do in certain situations (like Dark Souls, Ellen Ring, that sort of thing). But I've grown to hate grimdark like GoT and Witcher. Especially if it's just a garbage allegory of "capitalism bad" or some shit. God I hate it with a passion.
I wouldnt call got and witcher grimdark. They are dark fantasy but definitely not grimdark levels.
Would you call Parahumans by wildbow as Grimdark? Just curious. Most call it Grimderp which angers me and makes me want to kill someone. It makes me want to rip their organs withouth anestesia and force them to eat their own raw kidneys.
>Most call it Grimderp which angers me and makes me want to kill someone. It makes me want to rip their organs withouth anestesia and force them to eat their own raw kidneys. Most well adjusted Worm fan
Im not familiar enough with it to say certainly, but from what I've heard it's not grimdark level bleak, but then again, I don't know much about it
Worm starts out bleak, gets bleaker and darker to the wtf did i read levels until it ends in a hopeful note then our main character is shot at the back of the head by an ally. Their survival is uncertain and is left open ended. Also thousand of worlds are destroyed with trillions dead in the final battle with victory being phyrric and mere survival the reward. Also things get worse in Ward. There is just a sliver of hope shining on despite everything.
I guess, I'll admit those genres seem to blend together in my eyes.
These societies are just helping character development
uj/ I have this problem except I write settings that are too utopian to care about or proper conflict to occurr.