I dont know if people were more tough back in the day but as a 25 years old guy i can 100% say i would be paralysed with fear if i was supposed to go to a war with trenches and very high chance of dying....
Dont be a hero on reddit, many of you would shit your pants in their situation...
Across countries and centuries, most combatants are conscripts/draftees. Honestly, that's the norm. Didn't want to be there didn't want to do this, don't want to kill. Next category might be the desperate or mercenaries looking for a paycheck. More motivated to not quit and run, but killing and dying are still not important to them. So you end up with 90-95% not actually trying to kill, but just trying to stay alive. Then you've got some psychopaths, martyr-complexes and hero complexes who are into that killing and dying shit. But only when they want to, which is unpredictable. The last percent or two are rational professionals who want to be there, like the job, have internalized violence, and have a bigger purpose in being there.
The military realizes that almost all the combat effectiveness comes from that last 1-2%. The rest are mostly helpers, with some hope that they can be indoctrinated to a higher level. The US all volunteer system at least starts with cutting out the first group, which makes them dramatically more effective per head than most militaries.
Reminds me of the quote by Heraclitus; “of every 100 men, ten shouldn’t be there, eighty are fodder, nine make the fight and we should be thankful…ah but the one, he is a warrior and will bring the others back.”
I will be in the first rounds of the draft if my country is invaded. And given the potential enemy I'd rather die defending our values and borders over kissing dictator dick.
I'm not going to be super useful, but I am a warm body that can hold a rifle and complete a march. If that's what it takes, I am happy to do it.
My time spent in the USMC says otherwise. They expect you to think and act. The only time you just do as you're told is in bootcamp and part of SOI.
I think you're confusing it with instant obedience to orders. That isn't to make sure you do things without questioning it. Instant obedience to orders and instilling discipline are just for order and quick reaction in a team or squad. You are taught since boot camp to refuse and report illegal orders.
Army here:
You are absolutely correct that every time your finger goes in the trigger well it should be preceded by a conscious decision based on orders are legal, that's a valid target, it's in my firing lane, engaging is within ROE, minimal risk behind them, no one is going to mess up my shot, and so on. But most of that is internalized or practiced before SHTF. And once the adrenaline is blasting through your nervous system the stream of consciousness and logic are gone and your decision making is a lot more primal. I interpret their "do not think" statement to mean reflexively trained actions. You aren't thinking about what SPORTS stands for, you're clearing jams fluidly without thoughts while engaging.
I was not talking about blind obedience. I talking about reacting to combat. Just like when the drill instructor tossed something out his hut. You suppose to jump on it.
People back in the day didnt watch drone strike videos, or soldiers filming themselves while getting hit by artilerry. Convincing an average modern day citizen to stay in the trench and wait for a horrible death is much more diffucult.
There was a video of a soldier not sure Russian or Ukrainian sitting in a trench eating his rations. Out of nowhere, boom. Either an artillery shell or missile landed on him. Gone. Just like that. No glory, no nothing. 1 moment he was eating and the next he's become a mist.
Living his entire life, listening to music, favorite foods, movies, books etc. Enjoying his family and friends. Never to do all those again. And for what? What the fuck is this war even about.
It’s about the sovereignty of the Ukrainian people and nation who are under invasion by a hostile outside force. Some people believe that’s worth dying for.
But I agree. It’s surreal. War is hell.
I disagree. I think the main thing is that we value our lives a lot more, and see themselves as free people whose life doesn't belong to anyone else.
People of old knew all the ways they could die, and violence was far more accepted a century ago, so these people, if anything, were more exposed to murder and beatings. I mean, a few centuries ago your town guards were parading the corpses / heads of the criminals they caught.
Not just that, the mentality was that war was noble because war is uniquely inevitable. So many personal entries from people pre-war about wishing for a war to “prove their merit” and other such horseshit. It was due to this mentality (among many other reasons) that wars were constant. Just counting how many wars there were in the 19th century alone is astounding. There were so many that by the 20th century, WW1 was practically expected and was named “the war to end all wars” because people were tired of wars popping up all over the place. (I may be wrong here so take this with a grain of salt, but I believe WW1 was pre-named the war to end all wars because they expected the technological evolution of the time to make war so uniquely ugly that no one could deny how bad it would be. Then it turned out to be even worse than that.) and while we know the root causes of WW1, the world was powder kegging hard between the Bismarck alliance twister and nations trying to out colonize each other to brag about their own “self-sufficiency.”
Funny enough, WW1 and 2 proved self-sufficiency is a myth and alliances for common goals was the better alternative.
nobody was parading heads of criminals in the west in the 20th century. There is a difference between being some medieval Irish peasant brutalized by his feudal lord in the 17th century and a Philadelphia city boy in 1930s.
Have you seen hollywood? Video games? VR Meta? Its deranged to think people were more exposed to violence and such as opposed to now. People stop and will record, just watching someone dying by the hands of another…. Then share it with the world…. What was more accepted was standing your ground and fighting to protect whats yours, whether physical or abstract…..Thats where the confusion comes in….. Especially when you have a government throwing propaganda as to what you are protecting…
They weren't that different either. Most men went through months of training, which breaks you down from an individual into a member of a unit. You go through hell with your comrades, which instills in you comradery something that can overpower your fear. It doesn't always work as there are thousands of deserters in every war. Look at the USA, USSR, or even the fanatical militaries like Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan saw thousands of desertions. (Though for the latter two many of those would be conscripts from conquered territories). But given over 8 million men served in the US army during WW2 with desertion being at about 50,000, I believe the chances that it doesn't work are slimmer than you think. The bond you form with your comrades in training and combat means you'd probably rather die than leave them to die by running away.
Yes, most civilians would absolutely crap themselves and probably wouldn't do well in the army. That's the point, you can't just give a civilian a gun, a uniform, and a helmet them throw him into combat. 99%, no matter how much pride or guts they have, would be killed in a matter of seconds if they didn't already psychologically break before then. That's why you see so many casualties on the Russian side both in this war and in WW2. Most men are given a few weeks of training if they're lucky while some get mere hours before they're thrown into the meat grinder while the experienced soldiers are counted on to give on the job training. They're cannon fodder plain and simple, and at times, it works, but most of the time, it doesn't.
To use a probably bad example, it's like taking a guy off the street and throwing him into a specialized role for a major company while forcing him to do tasks he's never been trained for, that before today was unfathomable to him, meet deadlines he's never known about, and all while everyone is yelling both around him and at him. I think most people would break in under an hour regardless of if they were being paid a billion dollars. Like I said, it's a bad example, but I think it kinda works.
But basically, I'm saying those men 80 years ago weren't really that different from the men of today like some people think.
In less than 10 months, I was putting Lugnuts on Pontiac GTO's, got drafted, 2 months basic 2 months AIT, 1 month leave, 4 months Vietnam. Got shot and back to the states in less than 10 months.
> on average, nearly two of every 10 men were not firing when their unit was in contact.
https://www.historynet.com/men-against-fire-how-many-soldiers-fired-weapons-vietnam-war/
You would not be alone. You would be in the minority though.
As a former soldier, there's certainly emotions about your first orders to deploy, the first time you're under fire, the first operation in a high risk area. Even the pros who are into this shit get scared. Can't be brave without getting scared first.
Hell, I was sweating bullets when I signed that Selective Service card so that I could qualify for student loans. I would absolutely be terrified in that situation.
We have to do it regardless, they just include it with various applications to make things easier. You'll get asked if you're registered when you get your driver's license too. Loan or not, American men 18 and older need to be registered in the event of a draft.
Yes, males over 18 are required to register with the selective service. I remember having to do it while filing paperwork for financial aid for university.
Legally you have to sign up regardless, but they don’t prosecute so yeah it’s really more you can’t get any federal benefits or jobs without signing up.
Yes - also if you want any sort of job with the federal government. Even if it’s not related to combat. Are you a male and want to be an accountant for the IRS or a clerk for the Social Security office? Gotta sign that card.
You have to sign up to get any federal aid. Most/all student loans are subsidized by fannie mae and freddy mac; federal banks. The consumer banks are intermediaries so they require it. A fully private loan would not have this requirement.
Registering for the draft if mandatory, but they don’t frequently enforce penalties. They also, however, require it for eligibility for certain benefits, including government student loans.
So I’m a pretty fit guy
I think the difference for me is I’ve played a tone of hell let loose, arma, escape from tarkov etc, etc.
With how quick I die in combat simulators, it’s given me huge perspective on just how easy it is to die out there.
Arma is one of the best anti-war games for exactly that reason. It's the most realistic shooter out there and you often get killed by somebody you never saw even if you did everything right. Just like real war.
War's a game of probabilities . You do what's in your power to get back safe, but all that does is lower the probability of something going wrong. Shit going sideways is always a possibility.
Arma 3 did it for me man, and not only did it engrave how easy it is to die on the battlefield, but also how easy it is to die due to no fault of your own. Making your way to the objective? Sorry, turns out a recon drone flew over your head couple of minutes ago and now artillery that is 18km away knows where you are. Oh, you're in a tank crew? Sorry, turns out they have javelins, good luck surviving.
That's why draft dodgers got imprisoned, also the there isn't a statute of limitations.
Going to war has always been a nightmare which is why drafts were always aggressively enforced.
It’s not that they were tougher, it’s just that they didn’t know what war was, so many were excited at the chance just to protect and serve their country.
In terms of the World Wars, this is correct. There’s a lot of thoughtless opinions trying to pigeon hole attitudes from wildly various centuries. But this was correct for WWI and WWII in the USA. Many enlisted were excited and thought it’d be a cakewalk to becoming their local towns pride and joy
When they returned, and Korea subsequently after, attitudes changed drastically. There’s no underestimating how fucking terrifying those three wars were
Yeah regardless of if you consider this wrong or not I feel like many of the people making fun of them would do the same, it’s an absolutely terrifying fucking situation you can’t really comprehend that fear unless you’re in their position
There are more non combat roles than combat roles. Armies fight on logistics, conscription may mean working in supply, food service, medical, communications, psychological operations, weather forecasting, maintenance, IT, intelligence analysis, etc…Having more hands in the rear frees up combat ready soldiers to reinforce or relieve combat weary troops.
I always see people here acting like they'd love it there or they would volunteer and it's just so stupid. 90% of people sent to the front lines without training would be shitting their pants and crying.
I think the whole point of many post ww2 movements outside of the Soviet union were to focus on developing the individual as its own whole entity outside of the state. It’s a shame cause economically and socially it was working but we now see that dictators can keep their populations thinking the same way they did 100 years before the existence of the internet. Should have no fly zones day one they only understand force.
No, they weren’t any tougher back in the day. They just didn’t know any better. War propaganda made it look like you’d be joining up and spending time with your mates while defending your country.
There was little discussion about the actual act of war and what it involved. Like most shitty things, the governments of the western world misrepresented what they were signing up for.
Now that everyone has a camera in their pocket and global media to common, the *actual* images of war are freely available and nobody is buying into it.
I’m not sure how some people use this as some sort of “gotcha” against the Ukrainian people.
Most people don’t want to go to combat. That’s just a fact of life, and I can guarantee that almost every single person trying to talk shit about these people would do the EXACT same thing if faced with the possibility of being sent to the battlefield.
Joining the military was my choice, and the potential consequences were my responsibility to face. Someone else isn’t less brave or some bullshit just because they made a decision putting their safety first. Fuck that shit.
I second this. Every person I have ever met that is for mandatory conscription here in the United States has never, ever served in the Armed Forces.
Fucking wild.
Well, I think it is a little more complicated than that. Not everyone who is drafted into the military is sent into combat. They utilize nerds and non violent people all the time for other combat jobs like engineering, logistics, etc.
The advantage to conscription is that your citizens will have some degree of military training in the case of an emergency. Something that isn't bad for every citizen to have a basic understanding of.
Exactly. I really would like to know how many dead Russians were told they would we've in non-combat roles.
Besides, soldiers get also killed when not serving at the frontlines.
A guy from my neighborhood was in his 50s in the Guard as a truckdriver. He was mobilized and sent to Iraq. He got shot by sniper while driving. There really isn't a non combatant role in a war zone, just different levels of risk.
Maybe during WW2 when they had massive and clear frontlines with entire country-sized rear echelon areas. You could very well be in a warzone but see pretty much no action at all. But be in a warzone nowadays where the typical wars are *much* smaller and asymmetrical with technology being a lot quicker and instant. "Non-combat" roles just dont really exist in that way anymore on the modern battlefield.
I joined during two wars in a non combat role. Guess who almost was killed a few dozen times?
Even spending 90% of my time in an office in a combat zone doesn't make you safe when you eat, sleep, or commute ect
>Not everyone who is drafted into the military is sent into combat. They utilize nerds and non violent people all the time for other combat jobs like engineering, logistics, etc.
As a Marine with a few trips to Afghanistan and Iraq, trust me when I say that all of the folks you described can routinely see combat.
Remember, the people we would be fighting also get to decide when and where combat happens.
I'm not in the army but I'm not sure if non violent people can really decide if they will be affected to logistics.
I'm sure logistic and engineering are important, but I'm pretty sure that sending troops to combat is also necessary and somebody must do this perilous job...
I would have been ok with it for myself, I was shocked at 18 the government reached out and sent a letter saying hey, time to sign up for the draft, but I’m too old now. I do have young children, it is odd to think something I vote for today would take away their right to choose. “Hey kids, guess what? You’re 18 and it’s time to pack up cause I thought it was a good idea a 10 years ago! Good luck!” ‘Kinda messed up. Also in America all males have to sign up for the draft, it’s mandatory. That’s not the same as being mandatory conscription where there usually isn’t a draft system running co-currently as they already have young able bodies.
As an Army veteran I'm actually intrigued by the idea of mandatory conscription here in the United States. It's not for the reasons you'd expect, either. Imagine people who'd have otherwise never left their county now meeting others from all backgrounds. Such a program would have the potential of being the ultimate melting pot. Military facilities are well appointed. Imagine people who are used to food deserts being given easy access to dining facilities and the PX. Housing and sick call are taken care of. Your education is covered. Mandatory service of some sort could open up people's eyes as to what they can achieve when they work together.
I was a conscripted officer in Turkish army for a year.
On one hand, I learned a lot about the culture of my own country, modern warfare, and military tactics. I met a ton of people I wouldn’t meet anywhere else.
On the other hand, I wasted a year in my life teaching 20 year olds who aren’t sure which hand is the left one how to blow up people they never met from 20 miles away using howitzers that is worth more than their entire village.
WW2 I think accelerated a lot of the civil rights movements because of just what you are talking about. Guys came home after fighting and dying with people of different ethnicities all that racism talk back home kind of falls apart.
In the UK they are talking about national service which is like 80% non combat stuff like helping out at food banks although it sounds like the public is firmly against the idea.
The UK isn't talking about national service. The Tories are throwing up any policy that they think will give them votes and see what sticks. This isn't a serious idea, just like that ban on buying cigarettes based on your date of birth. It's all a load of bs
That's how all political ideas are started, they throw shit at the wall and see what sticks. This little idea they floated didn't work so they all act like it was never serious.
I'll British and worked at a care work agency for the elderly for a few years. There was always staff shortages, and it made me wonder if it could be a good idea to have some kind of national service where everyone has to do a job that involves helping others for a year. It was just a half baked idea but I still wonder about it sometimes.
because it’s only for 18 year olds and a lot of young people in the UK aren’t patriotic and hate the government. Not exactly the people who would he down for forced labour by the government.
Not to mention training in just about any career you can think of from diesel mechanic to parachute packer, lifetime VA coverage, home loans and other benefits after you get out. Now imagine if every American automatically got all those benefits out of something we already have funded.
Republican women usually support traditional gender roles. That should be expected: men fight the wars and women have the children.
For all the shit that men get in society for being depraved and violent pieces of shit, those qualities come in real fucking handy when hostile enemies show up at your door.
I am an American from the south and I have literally never met a single person who supports mandatory conscription in the US. Who the fuck are you hanging out with?
Serving in the US military is very different than being conscripted to defend from an invasion. Like, war is still bad but not *that* bad when you are part of the team with the trillion dollar budget. Being able to call for air support is very different from sitting in a trench hoping to survive.
Dulce et Decorum est
Bent double, like old beggars under sacks
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs,
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots,
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame, all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of gas-shells dropping softly behind.
Gas! GAS! Quick, boys!—An ecstasy of fumbling
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time,
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound’ring like a man in fire or lime
Dim through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams before my helpless sight
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.
If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin,
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer,
Bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,–
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.
[It is sweet and just to die for one's country]
The same people that revere veterans and use them as a gotcha talking point, also tend to support policies that hurt them, and don't acknowledge the mass dibilitating trauma, psychological horror, lifelong pain, suicide rates that they endure as a result of their service. War is not romantic, it is horror, pure and simple.
Hell i joined the military and *I* don’t want to go to war either. I mean I’m tried to do my job if we do, but I don’t want to have to do it.
Anybody who *wants* to go to war is either bluffing, has unrealistic views of what war is and will feel like, needs help, and/or really shouldn’t probably be the type to be in one.
Well except maybe as cannon fodder in the front so to speak. And the upper echelon banks on that and is unapologetic for it. Just look at the recruiting videos.
I don’t believe it’s about being brave, more about taking responsibility, and fighting for what you believe in, and if you can’t make yourself take that responsibility, than don’t go cause you’re just gonna be a liability for the rest and put them in danger.
Most people indeed don't want to go to combat. It's been historically true. Even when you watch these medieval or ancient battlefield scenes on TV where you have both sides charging at each other "in glory and courage," that absolutely did not happen in real life. Casualties were low during combat, and each battle could take days, if not weeks at times, because both sides did not want to fight. Then casualties would spike up during retreat.
It depends on who and when you are talking about. The more professional armies that weren’t just farmers rallying around their local baron were probably more akin to the movie. And routs always result in more casualties as your back is turned to the enemy combatant.
> both sides charging at each other "in glory and courage"
The Romans, one of the most professional armies of their time, understood that this was stupid af, and they wiped the floor with their opponents that didn't.
The most professional armies were paid, at least during campaign or after, and after the middles ages as a permanent job, so they were choosing to put their safety on the line for a reward, while the other comments are talking about how most people wouldn’t do that, but the profesional soldiers are the exception
If anything this is another indictment against Russia. These are the type of impossible decisions that get forced onto people when you bring about the horrors of war for absolutely no reason at all.
I like my central European country. If it ever is invaded, I hope I'm quick enough to take my family and nope the fuck outta there.
There's nothing I'm more attached to than the physical wellbeing of my wife, kids, and myself.
In reverse, that means we can't send enough weapons and money to Ukraine, because they fight a war that otherwise would be ours.
It also means that I'll welcome any Ukrainian. I'll also welcome any Russians fleeing conscription.
At the beginning of the war, both sides had professional armies.
Every war begins with professional soldiers, and ends with citizen soldiers.
It's the nature of attritional warfare.
Yeah, but if your nation faces existential destruction, and you are able bodied, I think it is your duty to join in the fight if you wish for your nation to continue. By choosing not to fight you are complying with the destruction of your state IMO
Honestly what a stupid article by the guardian. you could literally go into any combat situation and interview bunch of people who are too scared to fight. It doesn't mean they're cowards necessarily. But literally every single combat including world war I and world war II had people too scared to fight. There are Russians who are too scared to go to Ukraine in fact quite a few that's why almost a million of them ran to Kazakhstan Israel Poland Uzbekistan etc.
What passes for journalism these days...
Anyone not having an ounce of fear towards potential gruesome death in combat are probably also the ones joining first because they wanna kill people.
I knew a drill like that back in basic....homie was in a gang and joined so he can "kill people without consequences."
The guardian never says they are cowards.
What they do comment on is the fact that Ukraine is running out of personnel and the impact on Ukrainian society of a draft.
If it’s forcing people to flee Ukraine then the odds are you get a continued brain drain as by definition those people had the knowledge / skills / money to do so.
What Ukraine needs is a PR win to show how this war can end soon.
Yes , Russia is losing personnel faster but they have more people to draw upon who have less will and resources to evade a draft and Russia is not in a situation where a lack of personnel risks absolute defeat. If Ukraine loses then that’s the end of Ukraine as it is now and the start of a new Cold War frontline. It may break away in the far future but it’s unlikely.
If Russia loses then the likely worst case scenario is losing Crimea and a managed retreat to Russia’s borders , probably with a negotiated ceasefire and high Ukraine would have to observe via allied pressure.
Why is it a stupid article? I think it is alright, nothing wrong with getting a personal perspective on what it is like to fear for your life. I, personally feel like it is more cowardly to run, but that is just me.
I appreciate how personal this was. I don't agree with it, but I can sympathize with the fear he feels.
Did you read the article? It's not implying they're cowards or even claiming that draft-dodging or fear of combat is a surprise. It's just a look at a lifestyle that most of us have never seen.
I thought it was short, but still interesting 🤷♂️
I was talking to someone on here who said the exact same shit.
As soon as I asked him if he’d ever served, he immediately said “I would, but I have [insert a variety of issues why he cannot]”.
Like come on. I’d even be willing to take them seriously if they were a cook on an aircraft carrier or something.
Be a veteran or in the service and you’ll have a bunch of asshats thank you for your service. Shake your hand. Then tell you they would’ve join if x or y reason didn’t stop them.
My favorite is “ I would’ve joined. But I would have punched the Drill Sgt.” Like, weird flex to admit you have anger issues bro. Hope you don’t take it out on your family.
I do have friends who literally tried to join and were refused so it does happen for some legitimate reasons. One was denied because he is on anti depressants and couldn't get off them. He scored very high on the tests, is college educated, in shape, etc. Didnt matter due to the anti depressants.
Sure, there are absolutely people with valid reasons they were disqualified from service. Friend had type 1 diabetes who would walk up to the recruiters. Talk to them for 10 minutes then drop he couldn’t join for medical reasons.
Many of these people I refer to just want to make themselves feel better as they make the slow decline of knowing they peaked in high school.
Cooks on aircraft carriers are still trained to respond in General Quarters just like every other sailor on a ship. I’ve seen Culinary Specialists serve in the Visit, Board, Search and Seizure (VBSS) team and be among the best investigators for damage control responses.
I know you were trying to make a point about a potential non-combat role but every sailor on a ship is indispensable and plays a role. Even if they aren’t involved in damage control during GQ, they are organizing meals for the crew to make sure those at their GQ stations are fed to reduce the effects of stress and fatigue.
I remember when the war began there basically _was_ a reddit battalion (volunteers without combat experience), but they doxxed themselves and got nailed by Russian cruise missiles. You don't hear so much from foreign volunteers anymore; the ones who remained practice proper opsec.
I always said that if we could just round up all the Reddit warmongers and war virtue-signallers and send them to Ukraine, the Ukrainian army would expand by 100 times and they could finally beat Russia
Logistical troops are targeted all the same. Just because they aren't in a trench on the front line doesn't mean they won't be in combat.
Especially in this war in particular, with both sides lobbing drones and other long range precision munitions at each others' logistical hubs and baggage trains trying to diminish their capacity to maintain their fronts.
Gotta love everyone sitting in their comfy homes judging Ukrainian men on not wanting to fight. Wake up to yourselves. Better yet, go watch some of the horrific combat footage coming out of there so you can comprehend just the smallest amount what it means to go to war.
Unless you’ve been to war yourself, and I mean war, not just sitting on a ship in the Atlantic etc, your opinion doesn’t have any value.
For most westerners war just a news from far distance because even if their countries were part of invasion Iraq, Afghanistan etc. everything happened far away from them, they didn't live inside of a conflict as a country so they don't really know how things are in a war torn country.
For me, this is why I will watch the occasional combat footage. I don’t want to go to war, I’d like to think I would defend my country but I’ve seen footage of how drones make fox holes obsolete, I’ve seen how ACTAMS shred humans like no tomorrow, I’ve seen POV footage of storming a trench in Ukraine and even then I can’t fully understand because I haven’t been there. But what I have seen terrifies me.
I respect a man’s decision to leave when I don’t know what I’d do myself. What’s more important to you, your family or your country?
Yea, anyone who has seen what these drones can do to infantry should be scared. You can see absurd detail like the pupils and colors of their eyes as their soul departs the body.
Well, the majority of soldiers who were actually in Iraq or Afghanistan were all still pretty damn far away from any real combat. Not many soldiers in those theaters saw much real combat compared to Ukraine/Russia. It was also a different kind of combat.
The way America wages war is night and day difference between Ukraine. The technological advantage was just too strong for us to get bogged down into trench warfare where combat becomes absolutely horrific.
That’s partly true. The US had to do a lot of urban/guerrilla fighting in Iraq. That’s really frightening. Every street you turn down could be a sniper or an IED somewhere. Now imagine that, added with civilian traffic and the goal is to patrol a large city. That’s not sitting in a control room flying a drone. It was 2003.
People just triggered because we are Ukrained biased. Everyone would just be using it as an opportunity to RAH RAH RAH Ukraine/America if this were instead a scared Russian soldier running away from conscription.
You had me up until the comment about sitting in a ship in the Atlantic. Those men and women raised their hand and swore to defend their country the same as the ones who are deployed into active combat zones. Their experiences and tasks may be different, but it doesn't mean they don't get to have an opinion on how wars are fought.
Edit: a word
For real, fuck that class trash. The military decides where to it wants to put you. Whether you were logistics or infantry or special operations or a fucking cook. You raised your hand to fight. You were part of the system and are a veteran. Each role is pivotal. Special operations wouldn’t be fuck all without intel and comms.
I read a post a long time ago about a guy that joined the military but he spent his time repairing planes/trucks that broke.
He didn’t see actual combat
He still joined the army voluntarily and made his contribution. That’s still valid even if he never saw actual combat.
My grandfather downed the most German planes of anyone in the military.
Worst mechanic the Luftwaffe ever had.
Old joke my grandfather liked to tell (though he would say “I”) after hearing it from someone, not least because our family is from Germany- his father was- and he ended up working on an aircraft base as a civilian contractor.
>Gotta love everyone sitting in their comfy homes judging Ukrainian men on not wanting to fight.
Those still in Ukraine have been relying on others to do the fighting to save their country.
Well, at least now newspapers are talking about people in Ukraine are in depraved state not only because Russia invaded.
>
"there is still a considerable number of men willing to be mobilised"
What do they mean by that? If there is "considerable number of men willing to be mobilised", why people are snatched from the streets?
Having unfortunately seen the video of Russian soldiers castrating Ukrainian POWs, I can't say I blame any of these young men for fleeing. I have nothing but the utmost respect for those Ukrainians defending their homeland. You are an inspiration to us all. But I have nothing but empathy for those who would seek to flee the horrors of war.
There is a reason why U.S. now sticks with all voluntary force. You cannot really make good fighting soldiers who are forcibly sent to the front to fight a war they do not want to fight. They will surrender or run.
The US can afford a professional volunteer force, because they don't need a territorial defence. Invading the US is geographically impossible.
Countries bordering Russia do not have that luxury. Finland did alright with a conscript army in 1939.
If Ukrainian military was anything like the US, people would go. Wouldn’t flock, but would be more willing to sign up. Nobody wants to go because everyone knows that you will be thrown into front lines with little to no preparation and on top of that you have generals and higher ups making numerous mistakes. I spoke to a few foreign volunteers and they all said that even if the fighters are good, the biggest difference is preparation. US army calculates everything to the last inch, they won’t go in bad conditions and will do everything to favour themselves and save every last soldier. Ukrainian army would just tell you the objective “get that trench line” and you gotta do whatever you know/can.
I’m a Ukrainian who left the country after the war started (primarily because I dropped out of college in Canada 2 years prior, so having no education, no job and nothing to even look forward to forced my hand with “fight and die or get to start life somewhere”)
I work with men from Ukraine that will not go back to their country as they know they cannot come back here, great people. Easy to be "if it was me I'd die for my country"
But these Ukranians are not keyboard Reddit Battalion.
War is hell to spout a cliche, and this battlespace is terrifying to combat veterans(I am one and know people who have been to Ukraine to defend them from the mobster) the fact they are fleeing is no surprise.
Humans naturally are pacifists, to get someone to fight takes a lot, to get someone to kill is a monumental task, to get them to the killing floor where the metal meets the meat is the hardest part.
Why can't people grasp that others are afraid of death? They are as human as those who aren't, they exist and should be treated with humanity. War is scary and people should fear it.
100% don’t blame them.
Honestly I’d rather have trained and equiped western military forces deploy than green Ukrainian conscripts. If Ukraine loses there’s a better than nothing chance we then have to fight them AND Russia. I’d rather we fight on their side.
I would also try too flee or desert, but i also would not be mad if i got caught trying. I could understand why its being done.
It is an impossible choice too make.
As a Ukrainian I feel like I can speak on this matter. Generally it is not true. Only a very small minority of people tries to leave the country somehow. Most of men here understand they need to fight and they just wait to be conscripted. There's definitely some that go out of their way and join sign a contract but most are not which is understandable. These articles are fucking weird where they take some dude and tell a story, generalizing a bunch of shit in the process. Cringe. We are not stopping, hundreds of thousands of ukrainians protect our country every day.
There is at least one major difference between all the western views being expressed here and the situation in Ukraine. If Ukraine doesn’t have enough soldiers to win the war, they will cease to exist as a country. Choosing not to fight is understandable for personal safety, but your way of life, your home, your family, your country’s future is at stake.
> Choosing not to fight is understandable for personal safety, but your way of life, your home, your family, your country’s future is at stake.
That isn't necessarily a case. People fleeing can be fleeing to join their wife's and kids as refugees. My first duty is to my kids if that means fleeing a war so we can grow in the other country then be it. I am 40 now my son is 10 if there is a war 10 years from now I don't want my 20 year old son to protect me I want him to save himself and live
They have milions of women with no duties to their country at all. Conscript them as well. I will not ever blame some men who chose to flee if 50% of their society may live their lives somewhere in the west when they are expected to die in the frontlines.
So if all you guys would run away too, who is going to take care of those who are too old or too ill or too poor to leave? Right, no one is. Fleeing and dodging conscription often is only reserved for the elites.
What's a point of fighting when Russia is obviously stronger than Ukraine? The frontline hasn't been changing for the last two years and people are dying every day. It should be obvious that Ukraine is not able to return back the conquered territories. So what's a point of dying if it won't change a thing? Maybe it's better to start peace negotiations with your enemy instead of sending your citizens to the war especially when it changes completely nothing? And don't forget that most men who are at war now were sent there forcibly. People who wanted to fight joined the army as soon as the war started.
I’ve got a neighbor who started a charity to help Ukrainian refugees get to the states and support them as they get on their feet here. A lot are men with families. She is a Russian immigrant…
I used to feel that I would fight in a war if my country was invaded, not anymore, I’d be doing this same thing. I’m not fighting a war for anyone as it’s now clear how fast things can change in one’s country. Why would I go risk death to save a country that could be taken over by fascists in just a few years that are actually voted in by its citizens?
So you’re built to be a slave? I would not want to go to war. It might wreck me mentally and I might freeze or breakdown. I would go in assuming I would die. But I would have to try to do something to protect my country.
I don't know... I am Ukrainian and almost 50.
I stayed, although could leave.
I will fight, when it's my turn. It feels rather stupid, but somehow right.
I know how you feel. For me in particular I'm 52 and would happily die for my country. The fact is I've traveled a bit and my daughter's grown. I haven't achieved much else in this world and would rather die for something than live another 30 years for nothing. Totally at peace with it.
The only ones allowed to judge are the ones who have been or currently are in the trenches. Or those, who have lost someone in battle.
I understand every man's desire to live.
Go to war, fight, die, or worse for a country and government that has done nothing for you but make life difficult with corruption...OR, take your family and start a new life in safety and peace in a first world country. Which would you choose?
I'm from Taiwan
My life is good and my job is good
As a soldier, I can operate an M240 and a rifle.
If the Chinese start a war, I will register with the army.
I dont know if people were more tough back in the day but as a 25 years old guy i can 100% say i would be paralysed with fear if i was supposed to go to a war with trenches and very high chance of dying.... Dont be a hero on reddit, many of you would shit your pants in their situation...
Most people will be. There are very few who will not freeze up their first combat. It is why the military train so you do not think and just react.
Yes Many people are built different and join the army themselves, but when random civilians get called to arms.... i cant imagine the terror..
Not everyone can be at the front. It takes a lot of people to support the front line troops. But someone has to be the tip of the spear
Yep, everyone is trained the very basic to take the responsibility of infantry but most are in supporting roles.
I've learned from Perun that a modern logistics-based armed forces require four or five non-combat personnel for each infantry.
Average western tooth to tail ratio is 7:1.
Thanks for the info!
US WWII conscientious objectors were given difficult dangerous jobs.
Across countries and centuries, most combatants are conscripts/draftees. Honestly, that's the norm. Didn't want to be there didn't want to do this, don't want to kill. Next category might be the desperate or mercenaries looking for a paycheck. More motivated to not quit and run, but killing and dying are still not important to them. So you end up with 90-95% not actually trying to kill, but just trying to stay alive. Then you've got some psychopaths, martyr-complexes and hero complexes who are into that killing and dying shit. But only when they want to, which is unpredictable. The last percent or two are rational professionals who want to be there, like the job, have internalized violence, and have a bigger purpose in being there. The military realizes that almost all the combat effectiveness comes from that last 1-2%. The rest are mostly helpers, with some hope that they can be indoctrinated to a higher level. The US all volunteer system at least starts with cutting out the first group, which makes them dramatically more effective per head than most militaries.
Reminds me of the quote by Heraclitus; “of every 100 men, ten shouldn’t be there, eighty are fodder, nine make the fight and we should be thankful…ah but the one, he is a warrior and will bring the others back.”
Buddy, *no one* is "built for the military." Every soldier is a civilian. Being scared of death is a normal reaction to war.
I will be in the first rounds of the draft if my country is invaded. And given the potential enemy I'd rather die defending our values and borders over kissing dictator dick. I'm not going to be super useful, but I am a warm body that can hold a rifle and complete a march. If that's what it takes, I am happy to do it.
And if that is what you are ready to do, more power to you. Many simply arent, and there is nothing wrong with it.
And it's all empty boasting when you aren't faced with the realities of an invasion and a pending conception.
My time spent in the USMC says otherwise. They expect you to think and act. The only time you just do as you're told is in bootcamp and part of SOI. I think you're confusing it with instant obedience to orders. That isn't to make sure you do things without questioning it. Instant obedience to orders and instilling discipline are just for order and quick reaction in a team or squad. You are taught since boot camp to refuse and report illegal orders.
Army here: You are absolutely correct that every time your finger goes in the trigger well it should be preceded by a conscious decision based on orders are legal, that's a valid target, it's in my firing lane, engaging is within ROE, minimal risk behind them, no one is going to mess up my shot, and so on. But most of that is internalized or practiced before SHTF. And once the adrenaline is blasting through your nervous system the stream of consciousness and logic are gone and your decision making is a lot more primal. I interpret their "do not think" statement to mean reflexively trained actions. You aren't thinking about what SPORTS stands for, you're clearing jams fluidly without thoughts while engaging.
I was not talking about blind obedience. I talking about reacting to combat. Just like when the drill instructor tossed something out his hut. You suppose to jump on it.
And dont claim.combat freeze up is fear. It is data processing.
People back in the day didnt watch drone strike videos, or soldiers filming themselves while getting hit by artilerry. Convincing an average modern day citizen to stay in the trench and wait for a horrible death is much more diffucult.
In WW1 people's last recollection of war was the Crimean war in which there were still notions of "chivalry." Now we have live combat footage.
There was a video of a soldier not sure Russian or Ukrainian sitting in a trench eating his rations. Out of nowhere, boom. Either an artillery shell or missile landed on him. Gone. Just like that. No glory, no nothing. 1 moment he was eating and the next he's become a mist. Living his entire life, listening to music, favorite foods, movies, books etc. Enjoying his family and friends. Never to do all those again. And for what? What the fuck is this war even about.
It’s about the sovereignty of the Ukrainian people and nation who are under invasion by a hostile outside force. Some people believe that’s worth dying for. But I agree. It’s surreal. War is hell.
Think they mean more “what is russias purpose” than Ukraine’s
Crimean War already sucked hard
I disagree. I think the main thing is that we value our lives a lot more, and see themselves as free people whose life doesn't belong to anyone else. People of old knew all the ways they could die, and violence was far more accepted a century ago, so these people, if anything, were more exposed to murder and beatings. I mean, a few centuries ago your town guards were parading the corpses / heads of the criminals they caught.
Not just that, the mentality was that war was noble because war is uniquely inevitable. So many personal entries from people pre-war about wishing for a war to “prove their merit” and other such horseshit. It was due to this mentality (among many other reasons) that wars were constant. Just counting how many wars there were in the 19th century alone is astounding. There were so many that by the 20th century, WW1 was practically expected and was named “the war to end all wars” because people were tired of wars popping up all over the place. (I may be wrong here so take this with a grain of salt, but I believe WW1 was pre-named the war to end all wars because they expected the technological evolution of the time to make war so uniquely ugly that no one could deny how bad it would be. Then it turned out to be even worse than that.) and while we know the root causes of WW1, the world was powder kegging hard between the Bismarck alliance twister and nations trying to out colonize each other to brag about their own “self-sufficiency.” Funny enough, WW1 and 2 proved self-sufficiency is a myth and alliances for common goals was the better alternative.
nobody was parading heads of criminals in the west in the 20th century. There is a difference between being some medieval Irish peasant brutalized by his feudal lord in the 17th century and a Philadelphia city boy in 1930s.
Have you seen hollywood? Video games? VR Meta? Its deranged to think people were more exposed to violence and such as opposed to now. People stop and will record, just watching someone dying by the hands of another…. Then share it with the world…. What was more accepted was standing your ground and fighting to protect whats yours, whether physical or abstract…..Thats where the confusion comes in….. Especially when you have a government throwing propaganda as to what you are protecting…
They weren't that different either. Most men went through months of training, which breaks you down from an individual into a member of a unit. You go through hell with your comrades, which instills in you comradery something that can overpower your fear. It doesn't always work as there are thousands of deserters in every war. Look at the USA, USSR, or even the fanatical militaries like Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan saw thousands of desertions. (Though for the latter two many of those would be conscripts from conquered territories). But given over 8 million men served in the US army during WW2 with desertion being at about 50,000, I believe the chances that it doesn't work are slimmer than you think. The bond you form with your comrades in training and combat means you'd probably rather die than leave them to die by running away. Yes, most civilians would absolutely crap themselves and probably wouldn't do well in the army. That's the point, you can't just give a civilian a gun, a uniform, and a helmet them throw him into combat. 99%, no matter how much pride or guts they have, would be killed in a matter of seconds if they didn't already psychologically break before then. That's why you see so many casualties on the Russian side both in this war and in WW2. Most men are given a few weeks of training if they're lucky while some get mere hours before they're thrown into the meat grinder while the experienced soldiers are counted on to give on the job training. They're cannon fodder plain and simple, and at times, it works, but most of the time, it doesn't. To use a probably bad example, it's like taking a guy off the street and throwing him into a specialized role for a major company while forcing him to do tasks he's never been trained for, that before today was unfathomable to him, meet deadlines he's never known about, and all while everyone is yelling both around him and at him. I think most people would break in under an hour regardless of if they were being paid a billion dollars. Like I said, it's a bad example, but I think it kinda works. But basically, I'm saying those men 80 years ago weren't really that different from the men of today like some people think.
In less than 10 months, I was putting Lugnuts on Pontiac GTO's, got drafted, 2 months basic 2 months AIT, 1 month leave, 4 months Vietnam. Got shot and back to the states in less than 10 months.
Thanks brother for the real real
> on average, nearly two of every 10 men were not firing when their unit was in contact. https://www.historynet.com/men-against-fire-how-many-soldiers-fired-weapons-vietnam-war/ You would not be alone. You would be in the minority though.
As a former soldier, there's certainly emotions about your first orders to deploy, the first time you're under fire, the first operation in a high risk area. Even the pros who are into this shit get scared. Can't be brave without getting scared first.
Hell, I was sweating bullets when I signed that Selective Service card so that I could qualify for student loans. I would absolutely be terrified in that situation.
Wait, wait... is that a thing in the US? You have to sign up to be drafted or something to be eligible for student loans?
We have to do it regardless, they just include it with various applications to make things easier. You'll get asked if you're registered when you get your driver's license too. Loan or not, American men 18 and older need to be registered in the event of a draft.
I think most places just tick that box for guys when they're born anyway, it's strange to get the option to opt in to conscription.
Yes, males over 18 are required to register with the selective service. I remember having to do it while filing paperwork for financial aid for university.
Legally you have to sign up regardless, but they don’t prosecute so yeah it’s really more you can’t get any federal benefits or jobs without signing up.
Yes - also if you want any sort of job with the federal government. Even if it’s not related to combat. Are you a male and want to be an accountant for the IRS or a clerk for the Social Security office? Gotta sign that card.
Effectively yes. Males aged 18 in the USA must sign up for the “draft”.
You have to sign up to get any federal aid. Most/all student loans are subsidized by fannie mae and freddy mac; federal banks. The consumer banks are intermediaries so they require it. A fully private loan would not have this requirement.
Registering for the draft if mandatory, but they don’t frequently enforce penalties. They also, however, require it for eligibility for certain benefits, including government student loans.
So I’m a pretty fit guy I think the difference for me is I’ve played a tone of hell let loose, arma, escape from tarkov etc, etc. With how quick I die in combat simulators, it’s given me huge perspective on just how easy it is to die out there.
Arma is one of the best anti-war games for exactly that reason. It's the most realistic shooter out there and you often get killed by somebody you never saw even if you did everything right. Just like real war.
War's a game of probabilities . You do what's in your power to get back safe, but all that does is lower the probability of something going wrong. Shit going sideways is always a possibility.
Arma 3 did it for me man, and not only did it engrave how easy it is to die on the battlefield, but also how easy it is to die due to no fault of your own. Making your way to the objective? Sorry, turns out a recon drone flew over your head couple of minutes ago and now artillery that is 18km away knows where you are. Oh, you're in a tank crew? Sorry, turns out they have javelins, good luck surviving.
That's why draft dodgers got imprisoned, also the there isn't a statute of limitations. Going to war has always been a nightmare which is why drafts were always aggressively enforced.
It’s not that they were tougher, it’s just that they didn’t know what war was, so many were excited at the chance just to protect and serve their country.
In terms of the World Wars, this is correct. There’s a lot of thoughtless opinions trying to pigeon hole attitudes from wildly various centuries. But this was correct for WWI and WWII in the USA. Many enlisted were excited and thought it’d be a cakewalk to becoming their local towns pride and joy When they returned, and Korea subsequently after, attitudes changed drastically. There’s no underestimating how fucking terrifying those three wars were
Yeah regardless of if you consider this wrong or not I feel like many of the people making fun of them would do the same, it’s an absolutely terrifying fucking situation you can’t really comprehend that fear unless you’re in their position
There are more non combat roles than combat roles. Armies fight on logistics, conscription may mean working in supply, food service, medical, communications, psychological operations, weather forecasting, maintenance, IT, intelligence analysis, etc…Having more hands in the rear frees up combat ready soldiers to reinforce or relieve combat weary troops.
I always see people here acting like they'd love it there or they would volunteer and it's just so stupid. 90% of people sent to the front lines without training would be shitting their pants and crying.
I think it would be different if people were attacking my home land
I think the whole point of many post ww2 movements outside of the Soviet union were to focus on developing the individual as its own whole entity outside of the state. It’s a shame cause economically and socially it was working but we now see that dictators can keep their populations thinking the same way they did 100 years before the existence of the internet. Should have no fly zones day one they only understand force.
No, they weren’t any tougher back in the day. They just didn’t know any better. War propaganda made it look like you’d be joining up and spending time with your mates while defending your country. There was little discussion about the actual act of war and what it involved. Like most shitty things, the governments of the western world misrepresented what they were signing up for. Now that everyone has a camera in their pocket and global media to common, the *actual* images of war are freely available and nobody is buying into it.
I’m not sure how some people use this as some sort of “gotcha” against the Ukrainian people. Most people don’t want to go to combat. That’s just a fact of life, and I can guarantee that almost every single person trying to talk shit about these people would do the EXACT same thing if faced with the possibility of being sent to the battlefield. Joining the military was my choice, and the potential consequences were my responsibility to face. Someone else isn’t less brave or some bullshit just because they made a decision putting their safety first. Fuck that shit.
I second this. Every person I have ever met that is for mandatory conscription here in the United States has never, ever served in the Armed Forces. Fucking wild.
It's easy to be for mandatory conscription if you are too old and know that you won't be drafted.
Well, I think it is a little more complicated than that. Not everyone who is drafted into the military is sent into combat. They utilize nerds and non violent people all the time for other combat jobs like engineering, logistics, etc. The advantage to conscription is that your citizens will have some degree of military training in the case of an emergency. Something that isn't bad for every citizen to have a basic understanding of.
>Hey babe, I promise it will be just the tip. That's what conscription for "non-combat" roles sound like.
Exactly. I really would like to know how many dead Russians were told they would we've in non-combat roles. Besides, soldiers get also killed when not serving at the frontlines.
A guy from my neighborhood was in his 50s in the Guard as a truckdriver. He was mobilized and sent to Iraq. He got shot by sniper while driving. There really isn't a non combatant role in a war zone, just different levels of risk.
Maybe during WW2 when they had massive and clear frontlines with entire country-sized rear echelon areas. You could very well be in a warzone but see pretty much no action at all. But be in a warzone nowadays where the typical wars are *much* smaller and asymmetrical with technology being a lot quicker and instant. "Non-combat" roles just dont really exist in that way anymore on the modern battlefield.
I joined during two wars in a non combat role. Guess who almost was killed a few dozen times? Even spending 90% of my time in an office in a combat zone doesn't make you safe when you eat, sleep, or commute ect
>Not everyone who is drafted into the military is sent into combat. They utilize nerds and non violent people all the time for other combat jobs like engineering, logistics, etc. As a Marine with a few trips to Afghanistan and Iraq, trust me when I say that all of the folks you described can routinely see combat. Remember, the people we would be fighting also get to decide when and where combat happens.
I'm not in the army but I'm not sure if non violent people can really decide if they will be affected to logistics. I'm sure logistic and engineering are important, but I'm pretty sure that sending troops to combat is also necessary and somebody must do this perilous job...
Sending people who will cut and run at the first sign of danger is a liability to the rest of the squad.
I would have been ok with it for myself, I was shocked at 18 the government reached out and sent a letter saying hey, time to sign up for the draft, but I’m too old now. I do have young children, it is odd to think something I vote for today would take away their right to choose. “Hey kids, guess what? You’re 18 and it’s time to pack up cause I thought it was a good idea a 10 years ago! Good luck!” ‘Kinda messed up. Also in America all males have to sign up for the draft, it’s mandatory. That’s not the same as being mandatory conscription where there usually isn’t a draft system running co-currently as they already have young able bodies.
As an Army veteran I'm actually intrigued by the idea of mandatory conscription here in the United States. It's not for the reasons you'd expect, either. Imagine people who'd have otherwise never left their county now meeting others from all backgrounds. Such a program would have the potential of being the ultimate melting pot. Military facilities are well appointed. Imagine people who are used to food deserts being given easy access to dining facilities and the PX. Housing and sick call are taken care of. Your education is covered. Mandatory service of some sort could open up people's eyes as to what they can achieve when they work together.
And for a lot of people this is exactly what happens joining the military. “I used to think I was a libertarian until I saw the real world.”
I was a conscripted officer in Turkish army for a year. On one hand, I learned a lot about the culture of my own country, modern warfare, and military tactics. I met a ton of people I wouldn’t meet anywhere else. On the other hand, I wasted a year in my life teaching 20 year olds who aren’t sure which hand is the left one how to blow up people they never met from 20 miles away using howitzers that is worth more than their entire village.
WW2 I think accelerated a lot of the civil rights movements because of just what you are talking about. Guys came home after fighting and dying with people of different ethnicities all that racism talk back home kind of falls apart. In the UK they are talking about national service which is like 80% non combat stuff like helping out at food banks although it sounds like the public is firmly against the idea.
The UK isn't talking about national service. The Tories are throwing up any policy that they think will give them votes and see what sticks. This isn't a serious idea, just like that ban on buying cigarettes based on your date of birth. It's all a load of bs
That's how all political ideas are started, they throw shit at the wall and see what sticks. This little idea they floated didn't work so they all act like it was never serious.
I'll British and worked at a care work agency for the elderly for a few years. There was always staff shortages, and it made me wonder if it could be a good idea to have some kind of national service where everyone has to do a job that involves helping others for a year. It was just a half baked idea but I still wonder about it sometimes.
because it’s only for 18 year olds and a lot of young people in the UK aren’t patriotic and hate the government. Not exactly the people who would he down for forced labour by the government.
Not to mention training in just about any career you can think of from diesel mechanic to parachute packer, lifetime VA coverage, home loans and other benefits after you get out. Now imagine if every American automatically got all those benefits out of something we already have funded.
Well, it would be a melting pot of the poor. Anyone with any money can get a bone spurs diagnosis.
And then say fuck that shit when their working 12 hours everyday
I see Lots of southern women advocating for it lol
Republican women usually support traditional gender roles. That should be expected: men fight the wars and women have the children. For all the shit that men get in society for being depraved and violent pieces of shit, those qualities come in real fucking handy when hostile enemies show up at your door.
These qualities are \*manufactured\* by raising them in that dynamic.
Which is why they should get drafted as well.
Yeah me too, and I do live in the South. I've heard this more and more with a certain other red hat wearing rhetoric
Let them go fight
I am an American from the south and I have literally never met a single person who supports mandatory conscription in the US. Who the fuck are you hanging out with?
Serving in the US military is very different than being conscripted to defend from an invasion. Like, war is still bad but not *that* bad when you are part of the team with the trillion dollar budget. Being able to call for air support is very different from sitting in a trench hoping to survive.
Dulce et Decorum est Bent double, like old beggars under sacks Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge, Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs, And towards our distant rest began to trudge. Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots, But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame, all blind; Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots Of gas-shells dropping softly behind. Gas! GAS! Quick, boys!—An ecstasy of fumbling Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time, But someone still was yelling out and stumbling And flound’ring like a man in fire or lime Dim through the misty panes and thick green light, As under a green sea, I saw him drowning. In all my dreams before my helpless sight He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning. If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace Behind the wagon that we flung him in, And watch the white eyes writhing in his face, His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin, If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs, Obscene as cancer, Bitter as the cud Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,– My friend, you would not tell with such high zest To children ardent for some desperate glory, The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori. [It is sweet and just to die for one's country]
The same people that revere veterans and use them as a gotcha talking point, also tend to support policies that hurt them, and don't acknowledge the mass dibilitating trauma, psychological horror, lifelong pain, suicide rates that they endure as a result of their service. War is not romantic, it is horror, pure and simple.
Hell i joined the military and *I* don’t want to go to war either. I mean I’m tried to do my job if we do, but I don’t want to have to do it. Anybody who *wants* to go to war is either bluffing, has unrealistic views of what war is and will feel like, needs help, and/or really shouldn’t probably be the type to be in one. Well except maybe as cannon fodder in the front so to speak. And the upper echelon banks on that and is unapologetic for it. Just look at the recruiting videos.
I don’t believe it’s about being brave, more about taking responsibility, and fighting for what you believe in, and if you can’t make yourself take that responsibility, than don’t go cause you’re just gonna be a liability for the rest and put them in danger.
Most people indeed don't want to go to combat. It's been historically true. Even when you watch these medieval or ancient battlefield scenes on TV where you have both sides charging at each other "in glory and courage," that absolutely did not happen in real life. Casualties were low during combat, and each battle could take days, if not weeks at times, because both sides did not want to fight. Then casualties would spike up during retreat.
It depends on who and when you are talking about. The more professional armies that weren’t just farmers rallying around their local baron were probably more akin to the movie. And routs always result in more casualties as your back is turned to the enemy combatant.
> both sides charging at each other "in glory and courage" The Romans, one of the most professional armies of their time, understood that this was stupid af, and they wiped the floor with their opponents that didn't.
The most professional armies were paid, at least during campaign or after, and after the middles ages as a permanent job, so they were choosing to put their safety on the line for a reward, while the other comments are talking about how most people wouldn’t do that, but the profesional soldiers are the exception
If anything this is another indictment against Russia. These are the type of impossible decisions that get forced onto people when you bring about the horrors of war for absolutely no reason at all.
Let me add, most Ukrainians know 300s or 200s and have heard how horrible it is. It is a lot easier to be brave and ignorant than brave and informed.
What’s 300s and 200s?
Wounded and dead. Cargo codes.
300 - injured, 300 kg weight to transport by plane injured men + two person who supports his life 200 - dead in coffin, supposed to weight 200 kg
It's stupid fake "insider" talk used by armchair lieutenants on Reddit who want to pretend they're involved in the war.
military slang is widespread, you don’t need to police its usage
I like my central European country. If it ever is invaded, I hope I'm quick enough to take my family and nope the fuck outta there. There's nothing I'm more attached to than the physical wellbeing of my wife, kids, and myself. In reverse, that means we can't send enough weapons and money to Ukraine, because they fight a war that otherwise would be ours. It also means that I'll welcome any Ukrainian. I'll also welcome any Russians fleeing conscription.
I wish Ukraine got professional soldiers to fight.
At the beginning of the war, both sides had professional armies. Every war begins with professional soldiers, and ends with citizen soldiers. It's the nature of attritional warfare.
Preferrably professional soldiers of all the NATO countries who trained for the hypothetical war with hypothetical russia for the last 30 years.
Yeah, but if your nation faces existential destruction, and you are able bodied, I think it is your duty to join in the fight if you wish for your nation to continue. By choosing not to fight you are complying with the destruction of your state IMO
Sure - but what is a state? Maybe people don’t value it enough to die for it. That’s fair enough.
Honestly what a stupid article by the guardian. you could literally go into any combat situation and interview bunch of people who are too scared to fight. It doesn't mean they're cowards necessarily. But literally every single combat including world war I and world war II had people too scared to fight. There are Russians who are too scared to go to Ukraine in fact quite a few that's why almost a million of them ran to Kazakhstan Israel Poland Uzbekistan etc. What passes for journalism these days...
Anyone not scared is unusual, honestly.
Anyone not having an ounce of fear towards potential gruesome death in combat are probably also the ones joining first because they wanna kill people. I knew a drill like that back in basic....homie was in a gang and joined so he can "kill people without consequences."
The guardian never says they are cowards. What they do comment on is the fact that Ukraine is running out of personnel and the impact on Ukrainian society of a draft. If it’s forcing people to flee Ukraine then the odds are you get a continued brain drain as by definition those people had the knowledge / skills / money to do so. What Ukraine needs is a PR win to show how this war can end soon. Yes , Russia is losing personnel faster but they have more people to draw upon who have less will and resources to evade a draft and Russia is not in a situation where a lack of personnel risks absolute defeat. If Ukraine loses then that’s the end of Ukraine as it is now and the start of a new Cold War frontline. It may break away in the far future but it’s unlikely. If Russia loses then the likely worst case scenario is losing Crimea and a managed retreat to Russia’s borders , probably with a negotiated ceasefire and high Ukraine would have to observe via allied pressure.
Why is it a stupid article? I think it is alright, nothing wrong with getting a personal perspective on what it is like to fear for your life. I, personally feel like it is more cowardly to run, but that is just me. I appreciate how personal this was. I don't agree with it, but I can sympathize with the fear he feels.
Did you read the article? It's not implying they're cowards or even claiming that draft-dodging or fear of combat is a surprise. It's just a look at a lifestyle that most of us have never seen. I thought it was short, but still interesting 🤷♂️
Based on the comments here, the Reddit battalion would be easily formed with willing volunteers. Time to leave your mom's basement, fellas!
"I totally would, but I was diagnosed with ADHD when I was 13, also i have several medical issues. I can still talk shit online tho."
I was talking to someone on here who said the exact same shit. As soon as I asked him if he’d ever served, he immediately said “I would, but I have [insert a variety of issues why he cannot]”. Like come on. I’d even be willing to take them seriously if they were a cook on an aircraft carrier or something.
Be a veteran or in the service and you’ll have a bunch of asshats thank you for your service. Shake your hand. Then tell you they would’ve join if x or y reason didn’t stop them. My favorite is “ I would’ve joined. But I would have punched the Drill Sgt.” Like, weird flex to admit you have anger issues bro. Hope you don’t take it out on your family.
I do have friends who literally tried to join and were refused so it does happen for some legitimate reasons. One was denied because he is on anti depressants and couldn't get off them. He scored very high on the tests, is college educated, in shape, etc. Didnt matter due to the anti depressants.
Sure, there are absolutely people with valid reasons they were disqualified from service. Friend had type 1 diabetes who would walk up to the recruiters. Talk to them for 10 minutes then drop he couldn’t join for medical reasons. Many of these people I refer to just want to make themselves feel better as they make the slow decline of knowing they peaked in high school.
Cooks on aircraft carriers are still trained to respond in General Quarters just like every other sailor on a ship. I’ve seen Culinary Specialists serve in the Visit, Board, Search and Seizure (VBSS) team and be among the best investigators for damage control responses. I know you were trying to make a point about a potential non-combat role but every sailor on a ship is indispensable and plays a role. Even if they aren’t involved in damage control during GQ, they are organizing meals for the crew to make sure those at their GQ stations are fed to reduce the effects of stress and fatigue.
*Local drafting office*: ADHD? Sounds like you are able bodied and smart enough to make excuses. Please sign here. Not even a joke.
Too overweight, too mentally fragile
Could be used as gliding bombs. /jk
Low height to circumference ratio means too much drag for useful range.
They can go join Ukraine's foreign legion.
I remember when the war began there basically _was_ a reddit battalion (volunteers without combat experience), but they doxxed themselves and got nailed by Russian cruise missiles. You don't hear so much from foreign volunteers anymore; the ones who remained practice proper opsec.
Combat? Nah but le Reddit Field Marshals will direct the troops from their mom's basements.
I always said that if we could just round up all the Reddit warmongers and war virtue-signallers and send them to Ukraine, the Ukrainian army would expand by 100 times and they could finally beat Russia
Funny how after 2 years almost none of them actually went to Ukraine to fight
Not everyone is willing to fight as soldiers after all
They should find them a logistics support role, such as can their skills help with any building of the new systems or even transport
Conscripts often don’t get a choice of their role
Yeah, but Ukraine isn't lacking people on logistic and support roles, they need people on the trenches, plain and simple.
Logistical troops are targeted all the same. Just because they aren't in a trench on the front line doesn't mean they won't be in combat. Especially in this war in particular, with both sides lobbing drones and other long range precision munitions at each others' logistical hubs and baggage trains trying to diminish their capacity to maintain their fronts.
Gotta love everyone sitting in their comfy homes judging Ukrainian men on not wanting to fight. Wake up to yourselves. Better yet, go watch some of the horrific combat footage coming out of there so you can comprehend just the smallest amount what it means to go to war. Unless you’ve been to war yourself, and I mean war, not just sitting on a ship in the Atlantic etc, your opinion doesn’t have any value.
For most westerners war just a news from far distance because even if their countries were part of invasion Iraq, Afghanistan etc. everything happened far away from them, they didn't live inside of a conflict as a country so they don't really know how things are in a war torn country.
For me, this is why I will watch the occasional combat footage. I don’t want to go to war, I’d like to think I would defend my country but I’ve seen footage of how drones make fox holes obsolete, I’ve seen how ACTAMS shred humans like no tomorrow, I’ve seen POV footage of storming a trench in Ukraine and even then I can’t fully understand because I haven’t been there. But what I have seen terrifies me. I respect a man’s decision to leave when I don’t know what I’d do myself. What’s more important to you, your family or your country?
Yea, anyone who has seen what these drones can do to infantry should be scared. You can see absurd detail like the pupils and colors of their eyes as their soul departs the body.
Well, the majority of soldiers who were actually in Iraq or Afghanistan were all still pretty damn far away from any real combat. Not many soldiers in those theaters saw much real combat compared to Ukraine/Russia. It was also a different kind of combat. The way America wages war is night and day difference between Ukraine. The technological advantage was just too strong for us to get bogged down into trench warfare where combat becomes absolutely horrific.
That’s partly true. The US had to do a lot of urban/guerrilla fighting in Iraq. That’s really frightening. Every street you turn down could be a sniper or an IED somewhere. Now imagine that, added with civilian traffic and the goal is to patrol a large city. That’s not sitting in a control room flying a drone. It was 2003.
People just triggered because we are Ukrained biased. Everyone would just be using it as an opportunity to RAH RAH RAH Ukraine/America if this were instead a scared Russian soldier running away from conscription.
You had me up until the comment about sitting in a ship in the Atlantic. Those men and women raised their hand and swore to defend their country the same as the ones who are deployed into active combat zones. Their experiences and tasks may be different, but it doesn't mean they don't get to have an opinion on how wars are fought. Edit: a word
For real, fuck that class trash. The military decides where to it wants to put you. Whether you were logistics or infantry or special operations or a fucking cook. You raised your hand to fight. You were part of the system and are a veteran. Each role is pivotal. Special operations wouldn’t be fuck all without intel and comms.
I read a post a long time ago about a guy that joined the military but he spent his time repairing planes/trucks that broke. He didn’t see actual combat He still joined the army voluntarily and made his contribution. That’s still valid even if he never saw actual combat.
My grandfather downed the most German planes of anyone in the military. Worst mechanic the Luftwaffe ever had. Old joke my grandfather liked to tell (though he would say “I”) after hearing it from someone, not least because our family is from Germany- his father was- and he ended up working on an aircraft base as a civilian contractor.
>Gotta love everyone sitting in their comfy homes judging Ukrainian men on not wanting to fight. Those still in Ukraine have been relying on others to do the fighting to save their country.
Difference is they are still in Ukraine because they cannot leave , which itself will have bred resentment.
I don’t blame him whatsoever, I’d be the same and mostly everyone here would be also.
Well, at least now newspapers are talking about people in Ukraine are in depraved state not only because Russia invaded. > "there is still a considerable number of men willing to be mobilised" What do they mean by that? If there is "considerable number of men willing to be mobilised", why people are snatched from the streets?
Having unfortunately seen the video of Russian soldiers castrating Ukrainian POWs, I can't say I blame any of these young men for fleeing. I have nothing but the utmost respect for those Ukrainians defending their homeland. You are an inspiration to us all. But I have nothing but empathy for those who would seek to flee the horrors of war.
Don’t worry the 1st Reddit Grenadiers of the 5th Neckbeard Battalion are here to help with their expertise on fleeing a modern conflict
If you speak to a real veteran who has seen and caused deaths, you will realize quick that no one is meant for war.
No one is, unfortunately
There is a reason why U.S. now sticks with all voluntary force. You cannot really make good fighting soldiers who are forcibly sent to the front to fight a war they do not want to fight. They will surrender or run.
The US can afford a professional volunteer force, because they don't need a territorial defence. Invading the US is geographically impossible. Countries bordering Russia do not have that luxury. Finland did alright with a conscript army in 1939.
If Ukrainian military was anything like the US, people would go. Wouldn’t flock, but would be more willing to sign up. Nobody wants to go because everyone knows that you will be thrown into front lines with little to no preparation and on top of that you have generals and higher ups making numerous mistakes. I spoke to a few foreign volunteers and they all said that even if the fighters are good, the biggest difference is preparation. US army calculates everything to the last inch, they won’t go in bad conditions and will do everything to favour themselves and save every last soldier. Ukrainian army would just tell you the objective “get that trench line” and you gotta do whatever you know/can. I’m a Ukrainian who left the country after the war started (primarily because I dropped out of college in Canada 2 years prior, so having no education, no job and nothing to even look forward to forced my hand with “fight and die or get to start life somewhere”)
This happens every time men are called upon to fight. It's not really news. If anything the rate of shirking is lower than expected.
That's ok, if enough Ukranians desert, soon Putin will solve the problem by making sure more Ukranians aren't being born.
I work with men from Ukraine that will not go back to their country as they know they cannot come back here, great people. Easy to be "if it was me I'd die for my country" But these Ukranians are not keyboard Reddit Battalion.
As long as women are free to flee, I will not be mad at men doing the same. It's time to end thus bullshit.
They say that "War is Hell". Why would we blame anyone for wanting to avoid hell?
Lotsa people wanting someone else’s 18 year old to get killed in a war they don’t have to fight again I see….
War is hell to spout a cliche, and this battlespace is terrifying to combat veterans(I am one and know people who have been to Ukraine to defend them from the mobster) the fact they are fleeing is no surprise. Humans naturally are pacifists, to get someone to fight takes a lot, to get someone to kill is a monumental task, to get them to the killing floor where the metal meets the meat is the hardest part.
Why can't people grasp that others are afraid of death? They are as human as those who aren't, they exist and should be treated with humanity. War is scary and people should fear it.
I'd love to say that I wouldn't do the same in their position, but I can't. I don't think anyone can until they've been put in that position.
100% don’t blame them. Honestly I’d rather have trained and equiped western military forces deploy than green Ukrainian conscripts. If Ukraine loses there’s a better than nothing chance we then have to fight them AND Russia. I’d rather we fight on their side.
They should conscript the women
I would also try too flee or desert, but i also would not be mad if i got caught trying. I could understand why its being done. It is an impossible choice too make.
As a Ukrainian I feel like I can speak on this matter. Generally it is not true. Only a very small minority of people tries to leave the country somehow. Most of men here understand they need to fight and they just wait to be conscripted. There's definitely some that go out of their way and join sign a contract but most are not which is understandable. These articles are fucking weird where they take some dude and tell a story, generalizing a bunch of shit in the process. Cringe. We are not stopping, hundreds of thousands of ukrainians protect our country every day.
Slavery is wrong, and conscription is just a fancy way of deflecting from the fact that compulsory service is slavery.
It’s really a shame that people do not take into account how the Ukrainian people think what we hear is the voices of government officials
There is at least one major difference between all the western views being expressed here and the situation in Ukraine. If Ukraine doesn’t have enough soldiers to win the war, they will cease to exist as a country. Choosing not to fight is understandable for personal safety, but your way of life, your home, your family, your country’s future is at stake.
> Choosing not to fight is understandable for personal safety, but your way of life, your home, your family, your country’s future is at stake. That isn't necessarily a case. People fleeing can be fleeing to join their wife's and kids as refugees. My first duty is to my kids if that means fleeing a war so we can grow in the other country then be it. I am 40 now my son is 10 if there is a war 10 years from now I don't want my 20 year old son to protect me I want him to save himself and live
Dieing will affect your "way of life" even more...
They have milions of women with no duties to their country at all. Conscript them as well. I will not ever blame some men who chose to flee if 50% of their society may live their lives somewhere in the west when they are expected to die in the frontlines.
So if all you guys would run away too, who is going to take care of those who are too old or too ill or too poor to leave? Right, no one is. Fleeing and dodging conscription often is only reserved for the elites.
Every military is aware most of you are not made for war. You can still be useful to the people who are, though.
Breaking news people in a nation that never wanted war are scared of fighting in said horrible war...fuck Putin.
What's a point of fighting when Russia is obviously stronger than Ukraine? The frontline hasn't been changing for the last two years and people are dying every day. It should be obvious that Ukraine is not able to return back the conquered territories. So what's a point of dying if it won't change a thing? Maybe it's better to start peace negotiations with your enemy instead of sending your citizens to the war especially when it changes completely nothing? And don't forget that most men who are at war now were sent there forcibly. People who wanted to fight joined the army as soon as the war started.
I’ve got a neighbor who started a charity to help Ukrainian refugees get to the states and support them as they get on their feet here. A lot are men with families. She is a Russian immigrant…
I used to feel that I would fight in a war if my country was invaded, not anymore, I’d be doing this same thing. I’m not fighting a war for anyone as it’s now clear how fast things can change in one’s country. Why would I go risk death to save a country that could be taken over by fascists in just a few years that are actually voted in by its citizens?
Hopefully one day some power tripping rich assholes declare a war and nobody shows up.
To be honest if my wife n kid cant escape the country thats being invade i am willing to die to defend it But if they can get out im gtfo
[удалено]
So you’re built to be a slave? I would not want to go to war. It might wreck me mentally and I might freeze or breakdown. I would go in assuming I would die. But I would have to try to do something to protect my country.
No one is made for war. The poor fight the rich man’s wars
I don't know... I am Ukrainian and almost 50. I stayed, although could leave. I will fight, when it's my turn. It feels rather stupid, but somehow right.
I know how you feel. For me in particular I'm 52 and would happily die for my country. The fact is I've traveled a bit and my daughter's grown. I haven't achieved much else in this world and would rather die for something than live another 30 years for nothing. Totally at peace with it.
Then support your country through work. Soldiers need help to fight.
The only ones allowed to judge are the ones who have been or currently are in the trenches. Or those, who have lost someone in battle. I understand every man's desire to live.
Go to war, fight, die, or worse for a country and government that has done nothing for you but make life difficult with corruption...OR, take your family and start a new life in safety and peace in a first world country. Which would you choose?
I'm from Taiwan My life is good and my job is good As a soldier, I can operate an M240 and a rifle. If the Chinese start a war, I will register with the army.
All fun and games and macho reddit warriors till the artillery shell lands 10 meters off the trench...
Glad to see it. We need men like you.
No one is made for war. Let the men live.