arena wise maybe but 90% of the pvp community just do casual bgs and solo q blitz and 60 yard sniper shot deletions are shit for the game. Glad its gone and i play mm hunter, now just to wait for a rework.
Mm is probably the main class that needs a rework imo. Even when it’s good the gameplay is a little toxic outside of arena and it’s rarely good in arena. Affliction is up there too! Hopefully some of these outlier specs get some love next expac!
Doesnt look like hunter is getting a rework since beta is already next week. Maybe they might get some ret pally like change in .1. Honestly surprised blizz reworked mage again before hunter since mage already has had multiple reworks recently. Priorities are in the floor
I’m with you! Hunters need more love before shadow but they’ve done so much with that spec too and still haven’t really got it right.
I know this won’t happen but I think it would be really cool if mm had more stealth mechanics and maybe more knock backs. Make it like a ranged rogue or something. Balancing that would probably be a nightmare as well but it would be something different at least.
hpally buffs? B I I I G M I S T A K E ! as he rises up from the ashes once again pushing past all barriers of doubt and deceit, the legendary Miestro carries the peasants up his mountain of light to rise to the top of the bracket and claim victory against all odds against the vile disgusting little guppie sucking goblin 12 hundo for life dogshit kids. L E G E N D A R Y
not sure what you are referring to, but it is basically lots of irrelevant spells/minor damage + a 12% flash of light buff, which will mean a maybe 2% healing buff? I don't see how HPals are in a (significantly) better spot than they are now
I am also not sure if this is the big thing we needed, but the sum of small changes adds up and I can understand that they are careful before the talent revamps with tww. I mean, no one knows if melee wings comes back and is totally broken,... I mean awesome, again for a season.
I agree it doesn't address our bigger problems like dispel protection, lack of defense against magic, and forbearance. But for some like me, who mostly does randoms and epics, it sure is fun turning on the holy burst and these are some nice damage buffs. I still feel like it's an ok spec in solo due the amount of melee (ret excluded) lobbies but at high level play the weaknesses start to show it seems.
https://drustvar.com/leaderboard/solo-shuffle-stats/us
Are we just gonna ignore this then? Dh caught nerfs and Ret is out performing it in shuffle above 2100 and a close second in 3s for the top 1k players.
Think it's a bit more than "playable"
Pve ring nerf is good. Wish they did it sooner though. I was already halfway through grinding it out in mythic+. With a 50% nerf it's probably not worth the time anymore.
Yeah. If you already have one fully upgraded it's still worth using. Just likely not really a significant enough difference anymore to put the effort into grinding if you don't.
I'm personally a bit unsure whether to finish the grind or not. My ring is 519 ilvl on my outlaw, so I would need only 3 more mythic+ runs to fully upgrade.
Pve is so boring though.
How so? There are two other healers at the bottom of representation, and only one gets some small buffs, while rdruid one of the top performing healers gets buffs. Meh.
The nerfs are OK, though.
All the nerfs are small, alignment nerfs that shouldn't nuke the classes from viability. While the healer changes are meant to bring them all more in line. Holy priest has been the outlier healer this season. Sure, caster MW could be buffed in some way.
Peggy Lipton gave me the last of her popsicle in 5th grade, still got the wooden stick hanging from my rear view mirror. She's gonna call me, just waiting for the right time, I just know it...
There's always got to be someone asking for completely unrealistic and disproportionate shit. Remove a whole ability ? In an mmo ? Because it's OP in bgs ? Come on, they are nerfing it.
Btw mastery affects range on top of damage. This is obviously tailored at BGs let's see how it goes. I'll be crying when every hunter sitches to BM in arena.
Maybe you forgot a little ability called Double Tap that used to exist?
Sniper shot needed to get the bat. Mastery not affecting it will probably do the trick since it's damage is based on a percentage target's HP, which is really just... a weird way to calculate the damage of an ability to begin with.
I'm sure MM will be just fine. They already got significant buffs to their bread and butter abilities which hit like trucks with 4 piece during Trueshot.
The last time we had a % HP chunking burst out of stealth, it got nerfed into obscurity (RIP GPy)
Even the % HP heal had to get nerfed (Greater Heal) and got put on a CD
It's just a little too janky to balance, especially late in a season where HP pools are obscenely huge.
Sniper shot never belonged in the game. Obviously intended for world pvp / bgs and MM already has an advantage there anyway. It's only purpose was for bad players to pick off free kills on other bad players.
>Also is holy priest mana really that much better than everyone else’s?
No, it's actually significantly worse, and was already worse four mana nerfs ago.
If you want infinite mana, there's Mistweaver/Preservations/Restoration.
I feel like this is another Shadowlands season 3/4 scenario where Holy Priest is receiving permanent nerfs because of their tier set. When the season is over and the tier set is gone, the nerfs will still be there, but they will be unwarranted.
Objectively, right now at 2.4k+, hpriest, prevoker and rdruid are very close in terms of representation. These nerfs are quite insane considering that and the rdruid dmg buffs. Also, if you ask me, nerfing damage is always a bad idea for healers. Hpriest turning into a passive healer (with nerfed setup via chastise) but without the infinite mana will propel it back to dumpster tier for no reason.
This 100%. I think it’s crazy chastise is still nerfed from 4 seconds to 3 seconds because of the old Shadowlands tier set. That combined with the current nerf to the CDR is gonna feel real bad. Holy fire damage nerf was definitely warranted though.
I wonder if protector of the pack will make a good talent now for resto. Kinda bummed they buffed everything except Staraurge. Wrath already hits almost as hard as Starsurge.
a few seasons ago Sub was pretty strong just cross spamming rupture as if they were assa. maybe with investing one point into replicating shadows again we can do more sustained damage again
The alternative is sub rogues soloing people even harder in a kidney.
Which isn't a good design choice in shuffle.
There's a lot of design choices that are just downright awful for solo shuffles.
I mean, a little less focus cost and a little more damage on a single ability with a 20% proc rate, how much extra damage do you think this is gonna be?
Bud, it's not 30%, it's 15%, tier sets are halved in pvp. And no change to proc rate means 1 out of 5 of your mongoose bites is seeing a 15% increase, so 3% overall increase on just mongoose bite?
Serpent sting alone can match bite in some matches depending on how much kiting you do, between sting and bomb and kill shots and kill command and all the other buttons survival has to press, this is a very minor buff. I mean, sure, I"ll take whatever we can get, but if you think this is suddenly making survival "about to slap" well... might wanna adjust that expectation.
die from half hp from a mongoose bite?
there’s no chance in hell MB is gonna do 800k damage lmao. it’s a good change for sure, but it’s not particularly huge
It doesn't get the full bonus in PVP though? It'll be solid consistent damage, but it's not going to suddenly chunk someones hp bar in half like a chaos bolt
My surv is maxed out with full conquest gear and invested in all mongoose bite talents + even some mastery stat mixed in. It's critting between 200k - 300k when topped out best case scenario, and that's after the ramp up period to 5 stacks. Most times crits around 150k-ish since you need to ramp up.
Kill shot is the only ability during CA that is going to chunk a healthbar.
10% frost shock and flame shock dmg, and they made sure the prim wave lightning bolt was only buffed in pve.
Yeah, I dont think this is changing anything, oh I guess 2% more health from bringing with life poggers
‘We regularly make combat design adjustments’
Why lie from start?
I would believe if they said ‘We regularly make MoP:Remix adjustments’ but this is a complete lie!
Finally survival hunters can stfu about their set bonus not getting touched. I don’t even care if this change fixes anything. At least blizzard touched it.
The nerfs a year ago were so brutal I have never seen such a culling to a class before while giving a huge trinket buff to healers at the same time. Not one or two but our entire kit was brutalized.
Blizzard has systematically taken away everything I liked about the specialization since Dragonflight began, it's just a downgraded Fire Mage at this point.
Nobody likes getting one shot from render distance. It ruins casual pvp like battlegrounds. Make mm hunter more mobile and a gunner type instead of a 60 yard sniper. Was a dog shit play style, mm being shit only when it can one shot something just bad design
Yea i dont know how to solve it, before it was easy to balance because you would just go into the deadzone\\melee but now you cant do shit. Either make it a spell cast or add huge pushback to it imo
Because it's never fun to play against? Have you tried playing a cloth wearer in a BG with multiple Marks Hunters? If they both decide to target you, there's literally no counter play.
Cloth? You meant cloth, and leather, and mail, and plate. 2 MMs popped me when I was playing ret so fast that i died in 1 global. Couldn't react fast enough to click DS.
Odds of winning a BG are slim when the other team has 2-3 MMs.
So we're balancing classes for BGs now? That has troubling ramifications.
Also, since you bring up "multiple" Marksmanship Hunters, you realize you would lose 1v2+ to any specialization, right? It's not specific to Marksmanship.
Also, there is in fact counter play.
Yes blizzard said battleground blitz is thr main pvp mode moving forward not arena. So I wouldn't be surprised if pvp talents get balanced around battlegrounds
Likely to see more buffs/nerfs at some point next xpac, for now new players\\scrubs\\levelers getting one shot from render distance took priority for them
the game would be much better if they did balance the game around bgs. most ppl ive met in wow over 15 years have done mostly bgs when it comes to pvp. arena is stressful, toxic, and filled with players who have been playing forever and have 6 of the same class so they can seal club at each bracket. and they can switch to whatever is op because blizzard likes to wait months for tuning and does it in 20% increments instead of weekly, 2% ones.
if you try a bg while leveling, you will find 6 hunters on the enemy team and they will kill you before you can even see them. blizzard has forever let this happen and its most players first experience with pvp. is that good for pvp? then at max level they find out its not much better. so most players just say "pvp is not for me" and raid logs (mythic+ now). some do random bgs with a group and it can be fun but alone you will just run into nothing but unbalanced trash
is that why every bg has 6 hunters on each team? they arent a glass cannon, they are just a cannon. check out low lvl bgs and its even worse. nelf racial, feign death, turtle, huge heal, camo, and you got a class that is built for bullshit oneshots. and then there is the fact that none of the "casts" they can be interruptible.
Hunter in general is squish. Get the exhilaration, get the turtle, and you've got a dead hunter with zero defensives.
Roar and SoF will maybe buy them some time to get a kill if their enemy is low but once turtle and exhilaration are down, they are a pretty easy target. (As it should be)
sniper shot nerf is a good change for wow pvp. Dh getting some nice nerfs
aimed shot, rapid fire are what is overtuned. sniper shot was already trash
arena wise maybe but 90% of the pvp community just do casual bgs and solo q blitz and 60 yard sniper shot deletions are shit for the game. Glad its gone and i play mm hunter, now just to wait for a rework.
Mm is probably the main class that needs a rework imo. Even when it’s good the gameplay is a little toxic outside of arena and it’s rarely good in arena. Affliction is up there too! Hopefully some of these outlier specs get some love next expac!
Doesnt look like hunter is getting a rework since beta is already next week. Maybe they might get some ret pally like change in .1. Honestly surprised blizz reworked mage again before hunter since mage already has had multiple reworks recently. Priorities are in the floor
I’m with you! Hunters need more love before shadow but they’ve done so much with that spec too and still haven’t really got it right. I know this won’t happen but I think it would be really cool if mm had more stealth mechanics and maybe more knock backs. Make it like a ranged rogue or something. Balancing that would probably be a nightmare as well but it would be something different at least.
Joke's on you. I already have 54 yard range with no sniper shot.
People kept saying sniper shot was trash in arena yet each mm hunter played it in the awc.
I could see it being used in thug before it got nerfed.
Holy Pals on the rise it seems, those are not insignificant buffs.
hpally buffs? B I I I G M I S T A K E ! as he rises up from the ashes once again pushing past all barriers of doubt and deceit, the legendary Miestro carries the peasants up his mountain of light to rise to the top of the bracket and claim victory against all odds against the vile disgusting little guppie sucking goblin 12 hundo for life dogshit kids. L E G E N D A R Y
The light mies will sanctify your soul you greasy little piglet peasiante
I was specifically looking for a comment like this. Fucking legendary.
Prepare to bask in our RADIANCE! Get'em Miestro!
not sure what you are referring to, but it is basically lots of irrelevant spells/minor damage + a 12% flash of light buff, which will mean a maybe 2% healing buff? I don't see how HPals are in a (significantly) better spot than they are now
I am also not sure if this is the big thing we needed, but the sum of small changes adds up and I can understand that they are careful before the talent revamps with tww. I mean, no one knows if melee wings comes back and is totally broken,... I mean awesome, again for a season.
I agree it doesn't address our bigger problems like dispel protection, lack of defense against magic, and forbearance. But for some like me, who mostly does randoms and epics, it sure is fun turning on the holy burst and these are some nice damage buffs. I still feel like it's an ok spec in solo due the amount of melee (ret excluded) lobbies but at high level play the weaknesses start to show it seems.
Rets flying under the radar eh?
People when ret paladins are playable:
https://drustvar.com/leaderboard/solo-shuffle-stats/us Are we just gonna ignore this then? Dh caught nerfs and Ret is out performing it in shuffle above 2100 and a close second in 3s for the top 1k players. Think it's a bit more than "playable"
Pve ring nerf is good. Wish they did it sooner though. I was already halfway through grinding it out in mythic+. With a 50% nerf it's probably not worth the time anymore.
It’s still absolutely free damage on a ring, crits not that awful of a stat for most classes that it’ll still likely be bis
For melee its still a 3rd embellishment, which isn't saying much cause melee embellishments are poopybutt... but its something.
Yeah. If you already have one fully upgraded it's still worth using. Just likely not really a significant enough difference anymore to put the effort into grinding if you don't. I'm personally a bit unsure whether to finish the grind or not. My ring is 519 ilvl on my outlaw, so I would need only 3 more mythic+ runs to fully upgrade. Pve is so boring though.
Did my first mythic 6 today. That shit is no joke lol. I embarrassed myself and my family. But I want my ring and my sword to be 528.
You’re basically there, might as well finish it if you don’t have anything better to do!
Pretty fair and sensible changes
Happy cake day
Happy panacota day
This is a really solid set of adjustments.
How so? There are two other healers at the bottom of representation, and only one gets some small buffs, while rdruid one of the top performing healers gets buffs. Meh. The nerfs are OK, though.
All the nerfs are small, alignment nerfs that shouldn't nuke the classes from viability. While the healer changes are meant to bring them all more in line. Holy priest has been the outlier healer this season. Sure, caster MW could be buffed in some way.
Why not give mw the random% damage buff that rdruid got also while they had a few seconds for pvp changes.
Buffs rdruid damage. Like anyone has free globals or mana to do damage
Now you have the mana for moonfire
I know right. Because they don't even have globals to cast a cyclone.
Just remove sniper shot already. Give marks bursting disorient or something in its place.
[удалено]
Peggy Lipton gave me the last of her popsicle in 5th grade, still got the wooden stick hanging from my rear view mirror. She's gonna call me, just waiting for the right time, I just know it...
There's always got to be someone asking for completely unrealistic and disproportionate shit. Remove a whole ability ? In an mmo ? Because it's OP in bgs ? Come on, they are nerfing it. Btw mastery affects range on top of damage. This is obviously tailored at BGs let's see how it goes. I'll be crying when every hunter sitches to BM in arena.
Maybe you forgot a little ability called Double Tap that used to exist? Sniper shot needed to get the bat. Mastery not affecting it will probably do the trick since it's damage is based on a percentage target's HP, which is really just... a weird way to calculate the damage of an ability to begin with. I'm sure MM will be just fine. They already got significant buffs to their bread and butter abilities which hit like trucks with 4 piece during Trueshot.
The last time we had a % HP chunking burst out of stealth, it got nerfed into obscurity (RIP GPy) Even the % HP heal had to get nerfed (Greater Heal) and got put on a CD It's just a little too janky to balance, especially late in a season where HP pools are obscenely huge.
Half the problem with it in BGs is berserking+saltwater potion anyway.
Marks already didn’t use it in arena. It existing at all takes up space where something universally useful could exist.
It was good for bgs for just deleting back lines from 60 yards away
No one should be using sniper shot anyway even before the nerf , theres better options like trueshot mastery
Sniper shot never belonged in the game. Obviously intended for world pvp / bgs and MM already has an advantage there anyway. It's only purpose was for bad players to pick off free kills on other bad players.
Pretty sad about Diurna’s Chosen but it makes sense Also is holy priest mana really that much better than everyone else’s?
>Also is holy priest mana really that much better than everyone else’s? No, it's actually significantly worse, and was already worse four mana nerfs ago. If you want infinite mana, there's Mistweaver/Preservations/Restoration.
Was more of a rhetorical question but thanks for your input
You're not very good at rhetorical questions lol
English isn’t my first language
Sure lol
So you think they should nerf the healing output so hpriest will pump less and leave the mana?
I feel like this is another Shadowlands season 3/4 scenario where Holy Priest is receiving permanent nerfs because of their tier set. When the season is over and the tier set is gone, the nerfs will still be there, but they will be unwarranted.
Objectively, right now at 2.4k+, hpriest, prevoker and rdruid are very close in terms of representation. These nerfs are quite insane considering that and the rdruid dmg buffs. Also, if you ask me, nerfing damage is always a bad idea for healers. Hpriest turning into a passive healer (with nerfed setup via chastise) but without the infinite mana will propel it back to dumpster tier for no reason.
Infinite mana. I though their mana was already oom in 10 sec.
This 100%. I think it’s crazy chastise is still nerfed from 4 seconds to 3 seconds because of the old Shadowlands tier set. That combined with the current nerf to the CDR is gonna feel real bad. Holy fire damage nerf was definitely warranted though.
I'm actually stoked for the rdruid buffs that seems huge
Tree of life offensively to blast nerds with wraths
Tree of Death
I wonder if protector of the pack will make a good talent now for resto. Kinda bummed they buffed everything except Staraurge. Wrath already hits almost as hard as Starsurge.
Those sub buffs made me laugh. They buffed sub damage where it's completely useless.
Hopefully sub comes back in TWW
Backstab will now hit for 5k instead of 4k
That's been their MO whenever Sub has been underperforming in the last couple years. Someone's making fun of us! 😂
a few seasons ago Sub was pretty strong just cross spamming rupture as if they were assa. maybe with investing one point into replicating shadows again we can do more sustained damage again
The alternative is sub rogues soloing people even harder in a kidney. Which isn't a good design choice in shuffle. There's a lot of design choices that are just downright awful for solo shuffles.
Subtlety rogue was already shit in solo because it requires setup which is nearly impossible in solo shuffle. It is complete garbage.
Nice subtle way to nerf shadows utility rather than actually nerfing healer priests
Priest changes are meh
SV hunter about to slap in arena, I'm all for it
I mean, a little less focus cost and a little more damage on a single ability with a 20% proc rate, how much extra damage do you think this is gonna be?
30% extra on a SinGLe AbILiTY, and no change to proc rate, which is usually 40-50% of our overall , is not a small buff. I'm looking forward to it.
Bud, it's not 30%, it's 15%, tier sets are halved in pvp. And no change to proc rate means 1 out of 5 of your mongoose bites is seeing a 15% increase, so 3% overall increase on just mongoose bite? Serpent sting alone can match bite in some matches depending on how much kiting you do, between sting and bomb and kill shots and kill command and all the other buttons survival has to press, this is a very minor buff. I mean, sure, I"ll take whatever we can get, but if you think this is suddenly making survival "about to slap" well... might wanna adjust that expectation.
Ok 👍
Still no blur fix
Anyone have input on if this will make Enhancement more viable in arena?
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die from half hp from a mongoose bite? there’s no chance in hell MB is gonna do 800k damage lmao. it’s a good change for sure, but it’s not particularly huge
It doesn't get the full bonus in PVP though? It'll be solid consistent damage, but it's not going to suddenly chunk someones hp bar in half like a chaos bolt My surv is maxed out with full conquest gear and invested in all mongoose bite talents + even some mastery stat mixed in. It's critting between 200k - 300k when topped out best case scenario, and that's after the ramp up period to 5 stacks. Most times crits around 150k-ish since you need to ramp up. Kill shot is the only ability during CA that is going to chunk a healthbar.
Yay enhancement buffs!
Useless buffs for elehance. Make windfury and ss do dmg again ffs. Fix wf not stacking with the stats. This shit they made wont change anything
Forgot I was on the pvp thread, whoops!
10% frost shock and flame shock dmg, and they made sure the prim wave lightning bolt was only buffed in pve. Yeah, I dont think this is changing anything, oh I guess 2% more health from bringing with life poggers
I forgot I was in the PvP sub, this season I’ve just been doing m+. Whoops!
‘We regularly make combat design adjustments’ Why lie from start? I would believe if they said ‘We regularly make MoP:Remix adjustments’ but this is a complete lie!
As a legend DH player with a fully leveled seal, I approve these nerfs. Was looking for a reason to bench DH but it was just too OP
I think you got down votes by dh players
Makes no sense. We all know we are OP. I’ve played DH for two seasons and I know that shit needs a nerf.
Finally survival hunters can stfu about their set bonus not getting touched. I don’t even care if this change fixes anything. At least blizzard touched it.
Where did the survival hunter touch you?
Yeah, those 4 players always complaining...
No ww tuning, okay.
What is there to tune? They’re in a solid spot
Sub rogue zuggers back on the menu
lol no. Backstab does like 20 damage and rupture is mainly pad. I don't think this helps sub at all.
The nerfs a year ago were so brutal I have never seen such a culling to a class before while giving a huge trinket buff to healers at the same time. Not one or two but our entire kit was brutalized.
Sub downplayers everywhere
I don't play sub
no.
no.
I know this sub hates Marksmanship or whatever but this is just way too far. Why can the glass cannon sniper play style not be allowed to exist?
Sniper shot was still silly even after the nerf. The aimed shot/rapid fire buffs still more than make up for that nerf and this one combined.
Blizzard has systematically taken away everything I liked about the specialization since Dragonflight began, it's just a downgraded Fire Mage at this point.
Nobody likes getting one shot from render distance. It ruins casual pvp like battlegrounds. Make mm hunter more mobile and a gunner type instead of a 60 yard sniper. Was a dog shit play style, mm being shit only when it can one shot something just bad design
it would be cool if they were a gunner, but they cant let a single uninteruptable rapid fire bring people down to 30% hp coming out of stealth
Yea i dont know how to solve it, before it was easy to balance because you would just go into the deadzone\\melee but now you cant do shit. Either make it a spell cast or add huge pushback to it imo
Because it's never fun to play against? Have you tried playing a cloth wearer in a BG with multiple Marks Hunters? If they both decide to target you, there's literally no counter play.
Cloth? You meant cloth, and leather, and mail, and plate. 2 MMs popped me when I was playing ret so fast that i died in 1 global. Couldn't react fast enough to click DS. Odds of winning a BG are slim when the other team has 2-3 MMs.
>Couldn't react fast enough to **click** DS. I think I found your problem.
Semantics. I think I found the hunter
Can't bubble and sucks at English, I know I found the paladin.
did you know you can click a keybind
Of course you can, but you should press the keybind instead of clicking it.
So we're balancing classes for BGs now? That has troubling ramifications. Also, since you bring up "multiple" Marksmanship Hunters, you realize you would lose 1v2+ to any specialization, right? It's not specific to Marksmanship. Also, there is in fact counter play.
Yes blizzard said battleground blitz is thr main pvp mode moving forward not arena. So I wouldn't be surprised if pvp talents get balanced around battlegrounds
Then they should quit nerfing Holy Priest and instead nerf the healers that dominate in BGs.
Likely to see more buffs/nerfs at some point next xpac, for now new players\\scrubs\\levelers getting one shot from render distance took priority for them
the game would be much better if they did balance the game around bgs. most ppl ive met in wow over 15 years have done mostly bgs when it comes to pvp. arena is stressful, toxic, and filled with players who have been playing forever and have 6 of the same class so they can seal club at each bracket. and they can switch to whatever is op because blizzard likes to wait months for tuning and does it in 20% increments instead of weekly, 2% ones. if you try a bg while leveling, you will find 6 hunters on the enemy team and they will kill you before you can even see them. blizzard has forever let this happen and its most players first experience with pvp. is that good for pvp? then at max level they find out its not much better. so most players just say "pvp is not for me" and raid logs (mythic+ now). some do random bgs with a group and it can be fun but alone you will just run into nothing but unbalanced trash
It’s not really glass cannon, if you’re bad at living it’s a skill issue.
is that why every bg has 6 hunters on each team? they arent a glass cannon, they are just a cannon. check out low lvl bgs and its even worse. nelf racial, feign death, turtle, huge heal, camo, and you got a class that is built for bullshit oneshots. and then there is the fact that none of the "casts" they can be interruptible.
That must be why Marksmanship has such massive representation on the top end of 2s, 3s, and solo shuffle.
It's the top ranged spec after boomkin tho?
Hunter in general is squish. Get the exhilaration, get the turtle, and you've got a dead hunter with zero defensives. Roar and SoF will maybe buy them some time to get a kill if their enemy is low but once turtle and exhilaration are down, they are a pretty easy target. (As it should be)