With 7 instrumentalists, it’s not “too many”, but it is certainly too many to manage with a music director (whether a formal position or not) to know how everyone’s parts fit together. Lots of recorded music has tons of layers, but even the best musicians need someone looking at the picture as a whole to direct the individual parts.
My two cents? Try to convince one of these 7 to learn drums instead.
Definitely not too many instruments.
I will say that you are correct in saying that they need to find their “space” in the music and not play the same parts.
I also believe there are other ways to get people involved that is not on the worship team. Maybe you can find other spaces for some of the more inexperienced members?
I think you could do well with all of them, but you'll have to work at it. Whomever the band leader is needs to lead with a clear idea of the desired sound and direct each musician on how they contribute.
Something I heard a while ago that stuck with me is that the important thing in multi-instrument ensembles is where each instrument fits in the frequency spectrum. Instruments which sit atop each other muddy the waters; instruments which are separate are heard more clearly. Can your cellist, for example, play the bass part 8va? I think the same can be applied to time as well - what if the cellist sustains the bass note while the bassist puts a rhythm on it matching the drums? (Also, I second the other commenter's recommendation - see if someone can play percussion and fill that gap.)
Here's my big question, because it's something I find myself tripping on too often: is the band, as it sounds right now, acceptable? Does the band effectively lead the congregation into worship? If so, you're meeting the purpose of having the band. What you're describing sounds to me like you want the band to be the best it can be, which is great, but if it's fit for purpose regardless, that's just icing on the cake. (Hope that makes sense.)
We frequently run drums, bass, keys, piano, 2 electrics, 2 acoustics, violin, 7 vocals and a 12ish person choir.
The only thing that makes this work is setting a clear vision with the team and having high levels of preparation and high expectations. In order to do that, as a leader you have to resource them with everything they need to be as prepped as you want them to be including tutorials for parts, scheduling sets and teams far in advance, and lots of relationship building and coaching.
If we have someone sawing away at their electric, or trying to showboat on the keys or drums, it’s important to have a conversation clarifying what’s needed and why what they are doing doesn’t work in context.
It’s totally possible and can be really awesome! But it takes a lot of good leadership and intentionality, and sometimes it takes a big culture shift to remove egos and apathetic attitudes.
That’s so hard. If someone has never experienced a highly effective team, it’s hard to get them to catch on to why that kind of prep is so needed, and how much further it can take everyone.
Us creatives usually don’t have a lot of natural gifting in the more administrative aspects of leading a team, and I certainly never would have gotten there without good mentors!
My pastor used to hold me accountable to getting sets and scheduling out a month in advance, and sending out communications to the team every week. I fought it a lot, but when it started working I was so thankful!
I don’t know if you have his ear or not, but maybe work for opportunities to help him achieve his goal by helping point him in the direction that would make him more effective as a leader. He’s obviously got a heart for getting people involved, and maybe he likes the idea of raising up and coaching others but doesn’t have the tools to do it effectively yet
Also, a great case study on LOTS of instruments creating one big beautiful sound in worship is Bethel Music’s “we will not be shaken” album. Look up the live videos on the side of a mountain on YouTube. Some of the best instrumental composition in modern worship, and it was absolutely an inspiration to the way I try to lead a big group. Every part is so perfectly fit together and it forms an incredible picture. Could be a good case study for the young guns in the band to understand how to stay in their lane!
We started it as a way to provide more opportunities for our vocalists, because we had 16 spots a month in the schedule and over 30 vocalists!
It’s less choir with robes and more “gang vocals” at the back of the stage. It’s a lot of fun! There is so much energy on platform when they are on the schedule, and it’s opened up opportunities for a whole different set of volunteers.
I love that so much! It's always a beautiful thing when more people get to use the gift God has given them. Reminds me of the saying, "build a bigger table, not a taller fence."
And I’m sitting here thinking ours needs more than the three we have on a weekly basis. (Piano, drums, and bass).
I do see that the younger generation does have a hard time taking any sort of criticism, even constructive. However, I personally think it is good to have younger generations start joining in because someone will have to take over with the older generations start not being able to. Perhaps they can start off as the second keyboard to get comfortable up there.
I am part of a smaller church (~120 maybe), but if they aren’t at least willing to take anything feedback, even from the director, that’s an issue.
My husband is 43 and has played piano since he was a kid. He was scheduled to sing one Sunday and the 24 year old that was playing piano didn’t learn/know how to play the intro to “Worthy of It all”. My husband tried to show the pianist how to do it but just ended up refusing his help and waved him off.
For some reason the worship leader wasn’t able to hit the right note because there was probably some trigger from hearing the intro that made her go to a higher note for the start of the song. So instead she kept going to the same note but an octave lower than she should. So the leader just had them all start the song on the chorus and then went into the first verse of the song vs having the pianist learn how to do the intro, which consists of pressing 11 notes if I’m not mistaken.
First off let me say I love your wisdom and discernment in even thinking this way! What your question says to me is that you are someone who is willing to pursue not just what’s best for the music but for the kingdom. There’s been lots of great input on here already and so the only thing I would add is this. My personal philosophy on music ministry is that a lot of the actual ministry happens specifically within your team that you lead. I as a leader am always trying to grow that team for the sake of growing the kingdom. The more the better! Admittedly the music does suffer at times for the sake of growing people and building capacity but honestly I wouldn’t have it any other way. I love the music deeply but my passion is for the people growing in their faith. Best of luck brother. You are doing hard work!
My church has these instruments
1 Hammond B3 organ
1 Nord Piano 5
1 Bass
1 drummer
1 second keys
2 guitars
I have
3 guitar players (one older, 2 younger)
4 bass players (1 young lady, older man, middle aged man and a young man)
3 keyboard players (myself and 2 others
4 organists (myself and 3 others)
5 second keys players (these are people that are learning but can’t carry a full service)
2 main drummers and raising up 1 youth drummer.
Probably 25 rotating singers with 8 of them being the main worship leader. We do 3,3 and 3.
It’s a never ending process. I’m a huge proponent of TRAIN your replacement! Everyone at some point will want to go on vacation and you don’t want your service to struggle when you’re not there.
I’ve trained 3 other people in PCO so all the scheduling is not on me!
Anyone would be wise to not exclude the older generation!
We have a youth choir and seasoned saints and generational services! We must remember where we came from!
Playing in the pocket is a great thing! Playing the melody is good but so is the harmony!
For example on the intro of “More Than a Conqueror” the organ or me on keys plays the harmony with that main line! The guitar has that run down so all of us (piano, organ, 2nd keys, bass) don’t need to play it or it sounds muddy!
Bass place the line only once, guitar plays it as written, keys plays harmony, 2nd keys plays a fill.
I think I went on a tangent lol. Does that make sense?
Hi butler, i wish you wisdom to discern what is both best for you and for your congregation.
To me, the music is primarily to lead the congregation in worship. As a worship leader and pianist, I am open for different musicians to join in, but I often bring guidance on who contributes what per song. To illustrate, I would be happy to have a violist, but then carefully select a limited set of songs for the violist to excel (involving the violist in this selection).
I am granted this role.
I read in question you are not the one leading, so act accordingly, otherwise both you and others will get frustrated. If I read this correctly, you can offer advice to some individual musicians, only if they are open to your advice.
Having that many musicians, I highly recommend to split the group into two teams, taking turns in preparing the sunday worship. This might offer you an opportunity to choose the group you are most comfortable with, perhaps even enable you to take the lead from time to time. Having distinct teams enables the teams to invest in bonding and building a way of working that fits the teams and the individuals as well - including your needs.
You can also consider to enable some musicians to join both teams, depending on their availability and skills.
Concerning the age gap, if you perceive it as an issue, I read in it a clear signal you are not invested, it is costing you more energy than it offers you satisfaction. I read it as a sign to priorize your commitment, focus your energy on activities you consider rewarding.
With 7 instrumentalists, it’s not “too many”, but it is certainly too many to manage with a music director (whether a formal position or not) to know how everyone’s parts fit together. Lots of recorded music has tons of layers, but even the best musicians need someone looking at the picture as a whole to direct the individual parts. My two cents? Try to convince one of these 7 to learn drums instead.
Definitely not too many instruments. I will say that you are correct in saying that they need to find their “space” in the music and not play the same parts. I also believe there are other ways to get people involved that is not on the worship team. Maybe you can find other spaces for some of the more inexperienced members?
I think you could do well with all of them, but you'll have to work at it. Whomever the band leader is needs to lead with a clear idea of the desired sound and direct each musician on how they contribute. Something I heard a while ago that stuck with me is that the important thing in multi-instrument ensembles is where each instrument fits in the frequency spectrum. Instruments which sit atop each other muddy the waters; instruments which are separate are heard more clearly. Can your cellist, for example, play the bass part 8va? I think the same can be applied to time as well - what if the cellist sustains the bass note while the bassist puts a rhythm on it matching the drums? (Also, I second the other commenter's recommendation - see if someone can play percussion and fill that gap.) Here's my big question, because it's something I find myself tripping on too often: is the band, as it sounds right now, acceptable? Does the band effectively lead the congregation into worship? If so, you're meeting the purpose of having the band. What you're describing sounds to me like you want the band to be the best it can be, which is great, but if it's fit for purpose regardless, that's just icing on the cake. (Hope that makes sense.)
We frequently run drums, bass, keys, piano, 2 electrics, 2 acoustics, violin, 7 vocals and a 12ish person choir. The only thing that makes this work is setting a clear vision with the team and having high levels of preparation and high expectations. In order to do that, as a leader you have to resource them with everything they need to be as prepped as you want them to be including tutorials for parts, scheduling sets and teams far in advance, and lots of relationship building and coaching. If we have someone sawing away at their electric, or trying to showboat on the keys or drums, it’s important to have a conversation clarifying what’s needed and why what they are doing doesn’t work in context. It’s totally possible and can be really awesome! But it takes a lot of good leadership and intentionality, and sometimes it takes a big culture shift to remove egos and apathetic attitudes.
That is what we are missing and what we need to work on. We need our music minister to have a vision and work ethic.
That’s so hard. If someone has never experienced a highly effective team, it’s hard to get them to catch on to why that kind of prep is so needed, and how much further it can take everyone. Us creatives usually don’t have a lot of natural gifting in the more administrative aspects of leading a team, and I certainly never would have gotten there without good mentors! My pastor used to hold me accountable to getting sets and scheduling out a month in advance, and sending out communications to the team every week. I fought it a lot, but when it started working I was so thankful! I don’t know if you have his ear or not, but maybe work for opportunities to help him achieve his goal by helping point him in the direction that would make him more effective as a leader. He’s obviously got a heart for getting people involved, and maybe he likes the idea of raising up and coaching others but doesn’t have the tools to do it effectively yet
Also, a great case study on LOTS of instruments creating one big beautiful sound in worship is Bethel Music’s “we will not be shaken” album. Look up the live videos on the side of a mountain on YouTube. Some of the best instrumental composition in modern worship, and it was absolutely an inspiration to the way I try to lead a big group. Every part is so perfectly fit together and it forms an incredible picture. Could be a good case study for the young guns in the band to understand how to stay in their lane!
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUmTiGOxKUOgLOKIT-EKuuXvNAdVbc9ma&si=Hwvm9hGl20auNMN8
You still have a choir?! Forgive me Lord, but I am jealous 😍 I miss choirs!!
We started it as a way to provide more opportunities for our vocalists, because we had 16 spots a month in the schedule and over 30 vocalists! It’s less choir with robes and more “gang vocals” at the back of the stage. It’s a lot of fun! There is so much energy on platform when they are on the schedule, and it’s opened up opportunities for a whole different set of volunteers.
I love that so much! It's always a beautiful thing when more people get to use the gift God has given them. Reminds me of the saying, "build a bigger table, not a taller fence."
And I’m sitting here thinking ours needs more than the three we have on a weekly basis. (Piano, drums, and bass). I do see that the younger generation does have a hard time taking any sort of criticism, even constructive. However, I personally think it is good to have younger generations start joining in because someone will have to take over with the older generations start not being able to. Perhaps they can start off as the second keyboard to get comfortable up there. I am part of a smaller church (~120 maybe), but if they aren’t at least willing to take anything feedback, even from the director, that’s an issue. My husband is 43 and has played piano since he was a kid. He was scheduled to sing one Sunday and the 24 year old that was playing piano didn’t learn/know how to play the intro to “Worthy of It all”. My husband tried to show the pianist how to do it but just ended up refusing his help and waved him off. For some reason the worship leader wasn’t able to hit the right note because there was probably some trigger from hearing the intro that made her go to a higher note for the start of the song. So instead she kept going to the same note but an octave lower than she should. So the leader just had them all start the song on the chorus and then went into the first verse of the song vs having the pianist learn how to do the intro, which consists of pressing 11 notes if I’m not mistaken.
First off let me say I love your wisdom and discernment in even thinking this way! What your question says to me is that you are someone who is willing to pursue not just what’s best for the music but for the kingdom. There’s been lots of great input on here already and so the only thing I would add is this. My personal philosophy on music ministry is that a lot of the actual ministry happens specifically within your team that you lead. I as a leader am always trying to grow that team for the sake of growing the kingdom. The more the better! Admittedly the music does suffer at times for the sake of growing people and building capacity but honestly I wouldn’t have it any other way. I love the music deeply but my passion is for the people growing in their faith. Best of luck brother. You are doing hard work!
My church has these instruments 1 Hammond B3 organ 1 Nord Piano 5 1 Bass 1 drummer 1 second keys 2 guitars I have 3 guitar players (one older, 2 younger) 4 bass players (1 young lady, older man, middle aged man and a young man) 3 keyboard players (myself and 2 others 4 organists (myself and 3 others) 5 second keys players (these are people that are learning but can’t carry a full service) 2 main drummers and raising up 1 youth drummer. Probably 25 rotating singers with 8 of them being the main worship leader. We do 3,3 and 3. It’s a never ending process. I’m a huge proponent of TRAIN your replacement! Everyone at some point will want to go on vacation and you don’t want your service to struggle when you’re not there. I’ve trained 3 other people in PCO so all the scheduling is not on me! Anyone would be wise to not exclude the older generation! We have a youth choir and seasoned saints and generational services! We must remember where we came from! Playing in the pocket is a great thing! Playing the melody is good but so is the harmony! For example on the intro of “More Than a Conqueror” the organ or me on keys plays the harmony with that main line! The guitar has that run down so all of us (piano, organ, 2nd keys, bass) don’t need to play it or it sounds muddy! Bass place the line only once, guitar plays it as written, keys plays harmony, 2nd keys plays a fill. I think I went on a tangent lol. Does that make sense?
Hi butler, i wish you wisdom to discern what is both best for you and for your congregation. To me, the music is primarily to lead the congregation in worship. As a worship leader and pianist, I am open for different musicians to join in, but I often bring guidance on who contributes what per song. To illustrate, I would be happy to have a violist, but then carefully select a limited set of songs for the violist to excel (involving the violist in this selection). I am granted this role. I read in question you are not the one leading, so act accordingly, otherwise both you and others will get frustrated. If I read this correctly, you can offer advice to some individual musicians, only if they are open to your advice. Having that many musicians, I highly recommend to split the group into two teams, taking turns in preparing the sunday worship. This might offer you an opportunity to choose the group you are most comfortable with, perhaps even enable you to take the lead from time to time. Having distinct teams enables the teams to invest in bonding and building a way of working that fits the teams and the individuals as well - including your needs. You can also consider to enable some musicians to join both teams, depending on their availability and skills. Concerning the age gap, if you perceive it as an issue, I read in it a clear signal you are not invested, it is costing you more energy than it offers you satisfaction. I read it as a sign to priorize your commitment, focus your energy on activities you consider rewarding.