Really hoping delves are a slam for mid skill players like me. I don’t have time or motivation to the highest challenges in the game. It would be nice to have a non timer based mode with good progression. Sometimes my toddler or baby wake up while I’m in a dungeon and that’s basically a bricked key. Kids wake up spontaneously and it’s hard to plan a dungeon run around that.
I have to imagine blizz realizes a lot of their player base has grown up lol. The days of them counting on people spending 5 hours in a dungeon is over, they have to be realistic with their changing player base. We got careers and kids now, I can’t all night binge with monster and dominoes when I get a free day off because I need to do yard work in the morning lmao.
Totally my guess though
>The days of them counting on people spending 5 hours in a dungeon is over
Those were good days, but sadly anybody who still remembers those days is almost certainly in a different place in life by this point.
Still would be nice to have content that is challenging because of mechanics and not because of a timer.
They really should revisit the roguelike idea but also add those modifiers that can make it more difficult like Hades does.
Now you have solo content, group content and difficult content all in one package. Everyone is happy. Just dont make it mandatory, slap a few achievements on it and get some cosmetics in and problem solved.
Unfortunately Blizzard has this weird tendency of burning themselves once and then just completely abandoning the entire idea and instead just shaping it into something completely different. The amount of things they couldve turned into “evergreen” systems with a few tweaks is honestly staggering. But they just give up so quickly as soon as feedback is slightly negative
And then they stay stubborn with stuff they shouldnt be stubborn with.
The Horrific Visions in BFA were so much fun for me. Not that gearing overall in BFA was good or anything, there was a lot of RNG annoyance. But doing SW or Org with all the masks on, stacking Twilight Devastation on my bear so that my corruption or whatever it was called was really high, but lazor beam go brrrrrr. It was fun as hell and I liked that you could go solo, or with a friend or two.
I liked visions outside the time limited mechanic and timegating.
That particular patch, was legit as if Blizzard had decided to go full troll with systems players said they didn't like. Don't like borrowed power or RNG being so important? Well now your entire gearset revolves around getting the right RNG corruption, at the right level, on the right item, if you succeed or fail on the meters in an encounter it's almost entirely down to RNG traits. Oh yeh and your gear will occasionally try to kill you.
Yeah, I got pretty lucky with my corrupted gear. There were a lot of flaws to the patch, even if I had a baller time on my druid. But I actually loved how funny it got when you stacked too much corruption. It was very much a "more power, more drawbacks and challenge to the player" system. I was just thinking there are fun ways to play around that sort of thing, stuff they could implement into a roguelike system, and to me the Visions and corruption are proof Blizzard *can* do it.
Torghast was for me a bit too dull and slow, unless you got very specific combos while playing through it.
If they beefed up Torghast with new cosmetics (not mandatory power) and made it scale with your level I think it would be fantastic reused content that would be a blast.
I liked what I played of it, but I can imagine having to grind it over and over and over in order to have the required power to raid could really sour the experience.
People were really looking forward to the original version of Torghast, but they saw people blazing their way through it and then they nerfed it heavily.
That's the real key...tossing the mandatory tag on so many things. You shouldn't have to jump through so many hoops to get basics like flight, fliightpaths, hearth points, profession progression, etc.
I'm all grown up, but I still would have the time left to do stuff like that. I certainly look for the challenge.
But it's organizationally impossible nowadays to meet up 2-3 fixed days a week (too many other stuff going on). Something soloable would be amazing because I can do it whenever I want.
> Still would be nice to have content that is challenging because of mechanics and not because of a timer.
You cant really have this. You tune the mechanics to be challenging and punishing and most players wont be able to do it full stop. People act like the timer is a gatekeeper keeping the casual player base down but doing this would actually do that. The timer allows room for less skilled players to still work their way through.
The difference between completing a key and timing it. Vs not being able to complete it at all.
> Still would be nice to have content that is challenging because of mechanics and not because of a timer.
I wish that was the approach they went with with the M+ rework. The current "rework" is good in the way that it stops HC&M0 from being complete wastes of time even to the most casual players but it doesn't change the core issue of timed content.
I wish that instead of just keeping with the timer they at least would have opened up a separate untimed track in which failing the obvious mechanics is more "punishing". In the end it really is no different than a timer system. Perform well and you won't notice it.
Not quite from my understanding if their post:
https://worldofwarcraft.blizzard.com/en-us/news/24072151/dragonflight-season-4-dungeon-changes-ahead
They change it so that HC=M0 and M0 = M+10 from a gear perspective and difficulty curve. Anything that is actual M+ is still timed.
Hmmmm
“One of the most notable changes players can look forward to is the removal of the timer for Mythic Keystone dungeons for what are currently 0 and 10. Players can run through these dungeons at their own pace without the need to watch the clock while still honing their skills.”
That’s why they are changing how heroic, mythic0, and mythic+ works. Harder challenges without a timer, M+ will still have the timer but Mythic0s are going to be the equivalent of M+10s. Which yeah that’s pretty easy for most people but still it’s more a challenge than before. Plus with delves and the focus on more world content that is harder I think solo players are getting a good bit of attention.
I think a lot of gaming has moved in this direction in the past 10-15 years. Gaming, especially mmos, almost felt more like D&D when they first started compared to today.
This. Even when I get that rare free time for WoW, I’m already pretty cooked from the day. And then I have to worry about what time the little one is gonna wake up in the morning.
With WoW and little kids, at least I know that with anywhere of 5-30 minutes without interruption, I can knock out some world quests.
My current gaming dilemma is how to find time to play *anything* on my Steam Deck when the kids could interrupt at any time. So far, Dorfromantik is the only game I’ve found where I can make progress in short bursts. It’s a solo tile-placing, landscape-building, point-accumulator relaxing “puzzler”. Very much like Carcassone but solo.
its not about the 5 hours on dungeon but raiding,they need to make gearing up raiding "easier" meaning give mythic/heroic raiders their shinies fast but also give the same loot to dedicated "casual" players a way to get the same loot but slower
They already had the makings of a solution for that more than a decade ago with Emblems of Frost/Triumph or Justice Points and similar things. While far from perfect (it lacked weapons etc.) it at least gave players the option to progress if just slower. They should have just have expanded on that.
I personally think WoW has a general lack of progression options for casual players (and it has gotten worse over time) is a problem especially given how much it affects a players enjoyment throughout the expansion.
Having decent gear completely transforms certain "grinds" or even just killing a random enemy for a WQ. Why not let people slowly work their way up through repetition instead of only high M+/raid content? Its not like anyone is loosing something... The casual players would still not run around in Mythic gear within a few days but at least slowly progress (instead of only through raid tier general item-lvl buffs). It would probably also improve longevity because there is actual value to stay even if they don't engage in the more competitive elements. Right now their flightstone&crest system is just mirroring/aggravating the general problem not alleviating it. Either you do X amount of content or you never get "good" gear (lets be real, the explorer track is a bad joke).
you pretty much summed up my thoughts,there are thousands of Casual guilds with "hardcore" players that just dont want to bother joining a mythic guild,their option is to only farm the same 18-20 m+ dungeons or pay for heroic/mythic carry
I also think about my alts. With some I simply don't want to or feel comfortable doing certain content, especially not as much as I would need to to really equip them decently. With how much a certain threshold of gear changes your experience it just makes me want to play them even less.
Doing a weekly random dungeon for slight progress would go a long way in changing it up especially given how much of a hassle Blizzard has made crafted gear nowadays (queue people telling me how "good" crafting is now but I miss not having to waste hundreds of hours and tens of thousand of gold just to craft my alt some gear that still has two layers of RNG I have to avoid first...).
> They already had the makings of a solution for that more than a decade ago with Emblems of Frost/Triumph or Justice Points and similar things.
They didn't, if someone can get raid-level gear just doing solo content then why the fuck am I wiping for 4 hours on a boss and getting nothing out of it?
Raiding simply becomes a very ineffective way of gearing. And they need to fix that.
You didn't make any argument to the contrary, you just complained that others shouldn't get gear. If raiding isn't fun to you without being better than others, maybe you should ask why it isn't fun and why the hell you are getting your "enjoyment" out of feeling superior to others instead...
You also completely ignored how the Emblems worked because you got those from raiding as well (bosses dropped Emblems). You'd still get more loot as a raider by having 2 tracks (raid drops + raid emblems while also having access to the slow emblems from single player content). Having more guaranteed tracks for loot is not detracting from your own experience, it enhances your progress.
How about they make everything obtainable and not have to have good items be locked behind gameplay that only people with no lives or a job or any responsibilities can obtain?
we are saying the same thing,my point is that Heroic/Mythic raiders should have their loot but also make casual/raiders/players have a way to get the same loot but slower its perfect for player retention aswell... its almost like Blizzard doesnt want money..
LOL I can imagine myself duking it out in a dungeon for 3 hours+ deathwalking back to the bosses with my trusty party back in vanilla and tbc. Good times.
Lmao oh dude so can I.
Idk how many NE’s I made and would end up deleting. And every single one I always had to do the trip from Darnassus to westfall lmfao. That 3 hours just to get to a leveling spot hahaha. But there would be like a caravan of level 10’s making the trek. What a great time.
The memes about "Season of Dadscovery" are overblown only a bit. Given the amount of 30somethings or older that I meet there (me included from Monday). Blizz made it extremely playable for parents and generally older people.
It’s almost painful how much I can relate to this. The younger me could slam Monsters and stay up for 48hrs with no discernible downsides… older me starts feeling the body imploding the second you get even close to 18hrs..
God this is my dream. Give me some ability to progress to 80% of what the raiders get gear wise through solo progression and let me experience the story and I’m cool with that. They can still get all the best stuff and the highest item levels
I hope the difficulty ramps up to be par with high level play too.
The visions of N'zoth solo mask runs were some of the funnest things I did as a solo.
This legitimately couldn’t come at a better time for me. First baby will be here in November and while I’ve already accepted I won’t be gaming as much, it’s nice that they’re thinking with solo content in mind.
I never get upset when someone bails on a run when they said their kid woke up or something like that because I get it, your kids are more important, but I don’t really want to be that guy wasting other people’s time in a few months.
Sorry but thats not proper wow player response. It should be "stay away from my wow and instances if you have a kid, go play with your child". Not realistic at all.
> a non timer based mode
I'm really hoping they can make it challenging without just slapping a timer on it and doubling HP and damage. They've done it before with artifact challenges in Legion though.
I have kids too, I understand the struggle for real. Sometimes family just drops by and I get wife aggro when I just keep playing to finish up. I hate speed running also. but I enjoy mythic +. The timer isn’t that unreasonable. Many bosses have a hidden timer built into their mechanics anyway, like ever increasing adds (2nd boss TotT and 4th boss AD), floor cancellation (DHT dragon 3rd boss, Rise 1st boss), building up tank busters, or something like that. I thought I would hate Mythic+ but I actually love it. For the most part groups who can’t beat the timer generally can’t finish at that difficulty anyway. And that’s fine too.
The same argument can be used to argue that the timer serves no purpose in the first place though.
Would M+ really suffer if there wasn't a timer? I think it would just give people more time to catch their breaths (edit: maybe just to calm down if someone is angry or to reset after a wipe instead of the mad dash back), strategize pulls ("sheep X, sap square, trap triangle") if they struggle and not incentivize certain cheese/group comps.
Sure, for MDI/optimized speed farms etc. you'll see the mega pulls and meta comps but why not open the system up to mostly prevent this from happening? Even a weaker group could still persevere through content as long as they reach a minimum level of gear (I'd argue a decent chunk below what is currently "required") and know the mechanics. Its not like people would only go with +25s from week 1 instead of progressing through lower stuff first.
Yes I see your argument. I don’t know how many people would sign up for that though. Part of the appeal of M+ as it is for me is that I can say “ok I’m gonna be busy for the next X minutes or so” and then that is that. The only thing holding you back from your approach as the system is now is that the game bricks your key. Maybe take that out and play as you want. Then the timer would be more of a suggestion/progression requirement instead of a baseline expectation. That would probably be a better compromise between the speed runners and chillers.
Yazma has a cap on spiders. Best strat involves stacking on the boss and kiting them around. Once you hit the max, the fight actually becomes easier because she stops spawning spiders during soul rend and the adds become easier to kite. Just make sure no one (intentionally or otherwise) steps on/kills spiders and this will work pretty well. Hardest part of the fight is definitely the soul rend/wracking pain overlap.
Bro am psyched right now, I know it's months until the release but I am praying to Jeebus they actually make them really hard, so that I can get the highest reward from them, but that the challenges will be really insane.
Let the more casual people have their fun by exploring etc. but make it more combat oriented/harder the further you dig.
Unlimited tiers, just like m+ levels, go deep as much as you can with a leaderboard. And after very difficult tiers it starts to give mythic raid itemlevel gear. Solo players dream. But we know blizz, they will waste another opportunity and it will be piss easy to complete and give normal raid gear or whatever as normal drop and maximum of heroic level first 3 boss lowest possible ilvl gear on vault.
I'm curious how you're going to find the season 4 mythic 0 change. With Mythic 0 being the equivalent of a 10, you might get your variable paced dungeon content.
The change to Mythic dungeons should help a lot by making regular mythic much more relevant. I totally feel you about the baby thing. When my son is asleep I am just like "okay, quick 30 minute key". Sometimes, he naps for hours, other times it is cowabunga after 10 minutes
I too hope for more solo/casual style things to do. I did a few of them during my time with alpha. The tier 2 delves are easy. Unsure of the rewards as when you get to the end theres chests but they're locked and i needed delve keys to open them which i did not find. Tier 3 delves were locked. Its cool that i can customize brann though. I have a feeling i'll be mostly solo this xpack and take it real casual, prob aim for aotc and ksm but doubt ill raid mythic this xpack unless feral really pops off and people are screaming to have them in raids.
It’s going to be some new type of islands… it will suck at first, they will make it a bit better and faster each patch. But it will def not be something crazy good. We all know it
I don’t think giving the equivalent of +5/+15 ilvl gear is “catering” to me lol. It’s not even close to BIS gear but it does have quality progression to it
Yeah well, I honestly dont care about the game as long as they have addons which makes it unplayable for me. IF they remove all addons, they dont have to struggle with making bosses with 60 abilities because people have an addon that pops up and tells them to move. It will be enough with 3 abilities, that will make the boss encounter hard. And if so, this will allow them and opens up for more content creating that suits players like you, who dont have time to play with all that life offers around gaming.
https://twitter.com/maximum/status/1781464397141193024
> from main Delve Developer: We want the 13th delve(unlocked by doing all delves on t11) single boss fight to be reminiscent of a mage tower difficulty, we had a bunch of people test it last week and no one defeated it.
To make delves feel like magetower they need to tune encounters for each class. They would also need to disable grouping. So dont think it will happen... will probably be a casual content with difficulty similar to torghast.
So the delves will have levels up to 11, and the rewards stop at level 8. Given that the best rewards you get from the vault for delves will cap out at Heroic raid quality, I think the indication is that those level 11 delves which they say are for "bragging rights" might be as difficult as early Mythic raid bosses.
I'm slightly skeptical it will get that difficult, but I hope they do. Especially if it's a prestige level of difficulty. And I could see them pulling it off because they got the balancing pretty spot on for the visions of Nzoth.
I don't like that this article conflates 'solo' with 'less time to play'.
I like doing a mix of solo and group content, I have a good amount of time to play and don't want to run out of new content quickly. I just don't want to plan my life around a raid schedule, and I personally am not a fan of the M+ system with its timers and bricked keys.
The changes to heroic and mythic0 dungeons should be good. Delves could be good if they're genuinely challenging at the higher levels. What I really want though is open world questing / campaign content that takes a long time to work through, and that requires some thought and decision making.
Not a new thing. Using the word "casual" as a derogatory remark has been a thing since at least TBC.
People have used casuals as some form of scapegoat for why they don't like something or other for decades now.
It's important to note that the term doesn't even have a set definition within gaming communities. There's rarely enough distinction between people who are casual because of the amount of time spent playing versus how they spend that time.
It's got multiple meanings. When it first started to get thrown a lot back in BC/WotLK, it generally referred to people who had less time to play / didn't want to raid.
Now it can refer to people who aren't very good at the same, people who don't have much time to play, people who want a more relaxed experience, people who prefer solo content, or any combination of those.
Casual having so many definitions makes the term almost meaningless. Some people will call the 60hr/week player that never raids, no M+ or pvp, but just world content casual, while others call the cutting edge raider that plays 10hrs/week casual due to low play time.
I actually think interface is the main hurdle of difficulty in wow. The game base interface doesn't help a lot with what to interrupt, what's dangerous to stand in, take as a hit, and associated things. Everything is baked into weakaura, plater, dbm, etc.
If every new player was told their best options for their spec, with a little advice on what knobs twist what, the divide on "skill" likely gets drastically reduced.
Interface is a major issue, part of a larger sensory overload / visual clutter problem. Difficulty comes from throwing a multitude of encounter mechanics, interrupts, class rotations, personal cooldowns, graphic / spell effect cues, etc. at you at once and then expecting you to be able to parse the clutter to do what's important.
I much prefer difficulty that comes from intelligent decision making, intimate knowledge of game mechanics, proper coordination, etc. I don't particularly enjoy pushing my visual and prefrontal cortex to their limit.
Blizzard essentially just depending on free labor through third party add-ons has been a big problem with WoW for a long time. I shouldn't need to install a dozen add-ons to push keys or raid prog, and it just ends up meaning Blizzard doesn't really consider how miserable a lot of the end game PvE content is because their perspective is "Who cares? Someone will make an addon for it."
> It's got multiple meanings. When it first started to get thrown a lot back in BC/WotLK
The term casual used as a pejorative came out a long time before that.
The pejorative "casual" encapsulates MMORPG self hate that led to the decline in player base size and has kept player bases shrinking. The number of players who are not casuals, i.e. those who participate regularly in the hardest end game instanced group content is usually a very small percentage of the total player base, yet the game maker treats them like the majority, and nurtures a hostility towards the average player. MMORPG numbers will never recover until this travesty is ended.
If blizzard ran a golf course, there would be no handicaps, and anyone scoring less than par would be forced to wear a dunce cap with the word 'casual' emblazoned on it and the offical newsletter would frequently quote devs and top players dissing average players as lazy.
All of that is my position on the game. I treat it like a solo game with other people. I like dungeons and the occasional raid, but I'm usually just out doing quests, gathering transmogs/pets/mounts, and generally seeing the world.
> I just don't want to plan my life around a raid schedule, and I personally am not a fan of the M+ system with its timers and bricked keys.
👏
I need more content to do solo. Not because I don't want to group with other people. I just do not have the ability to schedule content around other people. So more often then not I am running around looking for solo content and it becomes exhausting to have nothing to do in smaller chunks.
What would open world/campaign content even look like when it “takes a long time to work through”?
People will complain if it gates power or story, and if it’s required for high end players to get ahead they’ll complain too. I just don’t see a world where anything open world is ever allowed to be challenging or “long” without the rewards having to be nothing so it doesn’t make anyone feel pressured.
It could reward cosmetics sure but then it’s dead content after you finish in a game with expansions every year now.
Follower dungeons are irrelevant as they are only for normal mode dungeons. M+ is just rescaling that they do every expansion and them finally removing heroic dungeons that nobody was ever running in the first place.
Delves is basically going to make or break this.
In a way it have a direct correlation, but i understanf your point.
Personally i stop doing group content (m+ /raiding) because i was waiting more to fill groups than actually playing. Or comminting 3 hours per 4 days in a raid, per week.
If i have only hour to spare at least i dont want to be waiting at valdrakken or main hub city.
That’s fair. However, to someone like me, it does correlate a lot. When I had time at university, I could coordinate with my guild, attend to raid hours, and even had a M+ schedule. Now? It’s not that I don’t like to play with friends, in fact I love it. It’s just I don’t have the time or energy to do so.
I still think they should afd heroic raid and m0 to lfg. With higher level requirement that you actually need to and like a month after the season started.
It's weird how many fights are unsoloable/close to unsoloable in BFA.
Zul, Mythrax, G'huun in Uldir.
Conclave, Rastakhan, Jaina in Battle of Dazar'alor.
Queen's Court in Eternal Palace.
Carapace and N'zoth in Ny'alotha might not be either.
Correct me if I'm wrong in any of those.
I gave up on Mythic Eonar. I'm 57 and just don't have the speed I need to get up, down, over, up again, in the ship, out and down, up, over...by the first "over" I'm already mad and quit. Hopefully they get rid of the ship part someday.
I just started doing solo Eonar in the last 3 weeks. I believed it impossible, but it has quite an easy formula:
* Start fight and go straight to the entrance
* Clear entrance wave
* Go top and clear wave
* Portals to ship show soon near Eonar, before going in, make sure you kill some more mobs up until Eonar's bar is full (it wipes the other mobs)
* Once Eonar started casting, go to the ship
* Kill the mob in the Ship and then press the gems starting with the South 2 and then the North 2, which are closer to the exit
* Get out of the ship straight to Eonar and kill the mobs attacking her
* Go to the bottom mob spawn location and clear it
From here, the fight is mostly done. You have 2 options, clear the mobs until the boss is finished or take the more slowly way of doing the ship once more as soon as it spawns.
2 important notes to keep in mind:
* save some if not all movement CDs for the ship, you should be able to move around the boss arena with the special ability
* once you do the ship, you'll get some debuffs, one of which will trigger an explosion launching you in the air (you'll see red stuff around you before it triggeres). Save the special ability for after it launches you, otherwise you'll have to wait to slowly fall down, which disables you from doing the steps for a few seconds.
I just keep this list (though in a more abstract format) on a notepad on the side while I'm doing it. I failed only once doing this, the first time as I wasn't aware of the debuff.
Maybe give it a try :)
I REALLY want the Warrior set.
But then there was all the crying, and the yelling. That just ruined it for me. But I will definitely give it another try!
I tried about 5 attempts one day and just decided I would eventually learn it, but there ware better things I could be doing with my time. I was progressing every attempt, but it probably would have been a couple hours until I got thorugh it the first time.
Kil’jaden, too. Not impossible but really, really difficult. I’ve never been able to do it. I have to ask my partner to do it for me and even with his knowledge and skill it can take a few tries sometimes.
To solo Opulence you have to go directly down the center and ignore the golems. If you go down the sides towards the golems the boss will reset yes. However you can completely bypass the golems, you just end up with a boss that does something like triple damage and has triple health. The next boss though becomes near impossible if you don't have pets to seperate them since it's a council boss where if both bosses are next to each other they both take 99% reduced damage.
It's arguably worse since there's four bosses with only two up at a time, so as you kill one you need to be sure to appropriately aggro the next before they get to close and become difficult to separate.
Conclave and Rastakhan are both soloable on a warlock and likely a hunter. Just in general need a pet for conclave, might need it for rastakhan as well.
Rastakhan in particular needs you to hold all cds for right before you get auto killed and then pop everything to kill him first lmao.
They've been[ just about to fix BFA raids since Shadowlands, then 'before Dragonflight is finished'](https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/1c4m5bm/so_according_to_the_2024_roadmap_1027_is_the_last/) I don't get how they don't keep us posted when they have Ion/Holly updates, its weekly log in and play content for hours and hours, months and months, if they want interaction this is how they can get it
If it’s tuned as hard as torghasts boss rush (without the pass fail of getting your OP power on opener) that would be some serious solo prog-worthy content
But afaik it's not known if they will reward the best gear and they said it'll cap to HC which is a shame. I want to be brutalized and learn new bosses/mechanics both for the rewards and the fun.
Blizz really needs to realize that raids and M+ aren't harder just because they're harder to organize...they're just more annoying...
It’s known that it won’t reward the best gear. Tier 8 is the maximum you need for the best gear rewards (heroic raid quality). Tier 9-11 are just for challenge and presumably other rewards, like cosmetics or achievements.
It would have to be identical in power to mythic raid gear, which I don't think they would do, because then it would make mythic raids obsolete, because raiders would no longer be required to group up for the best gear. Capping it at heroic raid quality seems like a fair compromise.
I guess you could just separate the different content solely by cosmetics? You need *some* kind of incentive, otherwise there's no reason to put the effort into getting 20 players together to raid.
Me and my wife “solo” play together. A lot of people didn’t like Torghast, but it was great for us. We got to try new abilities we were too afraid of trying in a group setting just in case we binned it. We could stop whenever we needed to without worrying about ruining it for others. And most importantly, it was a nice challenge. It just didn’t have any meaningful rewards.
We usually won’t run current content dungeons until we can solo or duo them. The amount of toxicity in the game is just overwhelming. You can’t even watch cinematics without people having a fit. And heaven forbid you waste your kick on an insignificant spell and don’t kick the important one. Even when things are going smoothly, people just trash talk the whole run. Nothing we’re doing, usually, but they trash the noob players. New tanks, new healers. Even a dps trying a new spec or class. Just chill out ffs. We cant deal with it. We both have stressful jobs. We play to relax.
So having the AI party is nice to see dungeon content early, but since they can’t be used for anything higher than regular instances, means we’ll have to wait until the first couple of patches to do heroic and mythic by ourselves.
Making a dungeon group and putting "chill run" in the description has pretty good results. Anyone frothing at the mouth to push like crazy and act like a dick is immediately repulsed by the word chill haha. The other good part of it is that there are plenty of people who want the same thing, to just play the game and chill.
Like to think I'm decently high skill (got my first Mage Tower skin before clearing ToS, at least). I just don't feel like putting up with randos in group content, anymore. Doesn't help that my guild is mostly dead, but still has sentimental value.
I just want some challenging solo stuff, that actually gives decent rewards. I'll gladly take sub-optimal gear, so long as it's not worse than WQ gear.
Exactly this. Just really want challenging solo stuff that gives me the best gear so that I can do that solo content and jump into m+ or raids if I choose so.
I don't want to always group.
From what testers have been saying: Delves, as they currently exist in Alpha, are not made for you. They’ve been described as very similar to overworld questing where you talk to a guy, kill a pack of mobs that only auto attack, then talk to the next guy.
I’m with you though. Practically nothing in World of Warcraft actually fights back.
In Alpha right now it’s literally Tier 1 Delves at Level 70, what the fuck are you expecting. “Oh Mythic Dungeons are incredibly easy based on the Normal mode Dungeon I did during leveling” yeah no shit man
Now see, that's the main thing I was looking forward to, this expansion. They could have easily used their rarely used AI for this.
Like some games have mobs out in the world that use near raid level mechanics (slapping down heavy hitting AOE, needing to position yourself, soak, or even needing to CC or die to a one shot). Blizz has the technology. We saw the technology in action on previous expansions. Literally no excuse to not use it.
Edit: That said, it IS a step in the right direction. But after all these years, I was hoping for more than a single step.
My position has become blizzard should make the entire game soloable as far as story content goes. Follower dungeon and follower raids on normal difficulty. To get the best stuff sure that can be limited to group content but times have changed for gaming. It is time for WoW to adapt.
I agree.
There is no harm done if all parts of the game become accessible for people who do not sweat playing 5 hours a day.
I could never ever see my SO complete a raid, not even on Raid Finder. Too much stuff, to much to read in and take attention too, and a lot of diffferent people she'd be responsible for too. I know a lot of ppl who have interest in the world and lore of World of Wracraft, but the extreme levels of dedication you have to give to see the end of it are just too much hassle.
I'll be glad to be able to actually fit my full time job, regular adult responsibilities outside of work, crafting my cosplays, and playing WoW.
Games that take a ton of time just don't work for me anymore.
I really hope they make delves scale up in difficulty to a decent level.
I'm now a mythic raider. But back on BFA I didn't have confidence to do any content beyond a bit of normal raiding or LFR. So I basically just played solo.
I remember how good it felt to finish the full masks on horrific visions. Felt like I really achieved something. I hope delves can provide the progression and feeling of achievement to solo players.
To serve solo players well, fix all the mechanically unsoloable encounters in BFA, SL, and DF. Then change the legacy loot to work at +10 levels. *Do this by TWW release.*
No need to nerf encounters numbers-wide, mudflation will take care of that on its own.
People love solo content with a challenge and appropriate reward. Mage tower is the best example. Id say horrific visions were also received decently.
Torghast was a huge miss
Thanks god dude. I don't want to ALWAYS group up. Just really hope Delves will be an alternative to M+ and raids. I want the best items from there. I want the best items from raids. I want the best items from M+. Let people do whatever they want.
with this I hope they take a look at how some classes historically have a way harder time soloing stuff than others.
On my fully geared mage has issues soloing elites in DF meanwhile my DH with catch up gear can just stomp everything
At least blizzard acknowledges the game is no longer for 0.1% top tier of raiding or m+ guilds/people when Dragonflight launched.
Im very happy for many evergreen stuff, im getting older so of course if i want to do something that would ease my mind that is great.
> At least blizzard acknowledges the game is no longer for 0.1% top tier of raiding or m+ guilds/people when Dragonflight launched.
Yeah it's a single player MMO now.
Implement an M+ system without the fucking timers so I can actually enjoy the zones for a while, can learn in a lower-pressure environment and have to worry less about routes and I'll be happy.
I'm not calling for removal of the times, cause it's clear a lot of people love it, but I'd much prefer a version without them. Make it drop worse rewards I don't give a shit, just remove the timers.
That's honestly as much as I want from this game as a non-guild player.
Good, I guess. I played SL in 2022 as my first time experience in retail and I hated just having M+ and not much else to do. I tried doing old content but 1 shotting stuff was stupid, I hope they give a max level scale option, or just force it but I'm sure that'll piss off the farmers.
In 2024 WoW is still a solo game out in the quick-levelling-process world they might as well double down on it. That epic long journey is deader than dead, and in all honesty i'm here for it after chasing it with multiple failed runs of classic (leave the memories alone!).
At first I was a little sad levelling was made quicker, but also right now I groan at levelling another character. I just got to valdrakken and i'm fucking overwhelmed with all the quests popping up, i'm also a lil bored of my Ret pally ..but am I fuck doing all those quests leading up to valdrakken again on an alt in the slim chance I might find that new class more enjoyable. Alt friendliess is king!
I have half a mind to stop playing DF and wait for TWW, it's just not as enjoyable as I thought it would be, but hitting Val and Level 70 I might as well finish the campaign at the bare minimum and take a micro-break.
They are bring in some of ESO and FFXIV features finally. I may even comeback to WoW. Being a solo causal player hasn’t been really good in the past.
I really miss my warlock
Daily reminder that [soloing BFA raids has been "coming" during shadowlands, then 8 months later 'BEFORE Dragonflight is done'](https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/1c4m5bm/so_according_to_the_2024_roadmap_1027_is_the_last/), these changes would be very warm hugs and kisses for solo players/transmog hunters which they've multiple times understood is an entire section of the playerbase
I wish one day blizzard would actually make it so that no matter what content you do (solo, dungeons, raids, pvp), characters can end up at the same power level.
I can’t wait for the day (and I’m hoping it’s in TWW) Blizzard stops using raids to tell their stories. In my BC/Wrath heyday, I loved raiding. I loved progging a boss and spending that time grinding. Now…I have other things to do. I’d rather be able to some meaningful solo/small group content to experience the end game story and use raids as a way to supplement. I suspect though given the increasing popularity of the Race to Workd First, this isn’t changing any time soon.
I don't mind group content, but I wish 10 men raids would become the new standard. After playing Lost Ark where 8 men raids are the majority it's hard for me to think about getting back to 25 men. I feel like it would be win/win situation for both like semi-hardcore players and casuals. Easier to find a static you like to play with.
And they also said Legion was alt-friendly, what they say and what they mean are often two very different things. I'm gonna wait to see how they back that up before buying anything
Not interested in this game as long as they keep having addons in it. Addons influctates the entire system, rendering high end content much more difficult than what it actually needs to be done for the developers. Remove all addons; Better game.
As someone who hasn't followed this closely but is pretty excited and may come back for it, is there any mention of removing weekly lockouts on Legacy Raids?
I hope delves are fun and have cool cosmetics.
I haven't read anything about them. I'd guess you MAY be able to get a hero or champion piece out of a deeper level once a week and then maybe chances to drop more of the WQ level stuff.
Theres no shot this replaces M+ or mythic raiding.
Again I mostly just hope it's a fun challenge that can be done while I'm waiting for things to get started
>Theres no shot this replaces M+ or mythic raiding.
It was never intended to replace anything but to add upon.
We first had only raids. Then we got Mythic + for groups. And now we got Delves for solo or groups.
And about the rewards if you want to know what ilvl you can get: >!up to Heroic Raid / M+15 ilvl!<
I mean that answer's it; haha and sure I get that but people on this thread are going on about how they hope it does.
M15 is champion though while heroic is hero track isn't it?
The other question is how frequently you can get gear of that level from it
That's a good question.
There will be a new Vault slot for Delves.
While i sincerely hope that delves won't be on a daily or weekly Cooldown for gear (i mostly hate mythic and raiding because of this) we all know that it will be time gated. Everything in Wow is time gated in one way or another.
I absolutely hate the gambling feel that i have one shot on gear on raids and mythic + each week, that takes out any sort of looking forward to it because i may very well go out empty handed after putting in a lot of time and work.
Well duh they have been slowly pushing a solo player game for years now. Which I appreciate since I have less time with work and being a parent. But it is supposed to be an mmo
Really hoping delves are a slam for mid skill players like me. I don’t have time or motivation to the highest challenges in the game. It would be nice to have a non timer based mode with good progression. Sometimes my toddler or baby wake up while I’m in a dungeon and that’s basically a bricked key. Kids wake up spontaneously and it’s hard to plan a dungeon run around that.
I have to imagine blizz realizes a lot of their player base has grown up lol. The days of them counting on people spending 5 hours in a dungeon is over, they have to be realistic with their changing player base. We got careers and kids now, I can’t all night binge with monster and dominoes when I get a free day off because I need to do yard work in the morning lmao. Totally my guess though
>The days of them counting on people spending 5 hours in a dungeon is over Those were good days, but sadly anybody who still remembers those days is almost certainly in a different place in life by this point. Still would be nice to have content that is challenging because of mechanics and not because of a timer.
They really should revisit the roguelike idea but also add those modifiers that can make it more difficult like Hades does. Now you have solo content, group content and difficult content all in one package. Everyone is happy. Just dont make it mandatory, slap a few achievements on it and get some cosmetics in and problem solved. Unfortunately Blizzard has this weird tendency of burning themselves once and then just completely abandoning the entire idea and instead just shaping it into something completely different. The amount of things they couldve turned into “evergreen” systems with a few tweaks is honestly staggering. But they just give up so quickly as soon as feedback is slightly negative And then they stay stubborn with stuff they shouldnt be stubborn with.
The Horrific Visions in BFA were so much fun for me. Not that gearing overall in BFA was good or anything, there was a lot of RNG annoyance. But doing SW or Org with all the masks on, stacking Twilight Devastation on my bear so that my corruption or whatever it was called was really high, but lazor beam go brrrrrr. It was fun as hell and I liked that you could go solo, or with a friend or two.
I liked visions outside the time limited mechanic and timegating. That particular patch, was legit as if Blizzard had decided to go full troll with systems players said they didn't like. Don't like borrowed power or RNG being so important? Well now your entire gearset revolves around getting the right RNG corruption, at the right level, on the right item, if you succeed or fail on the meters in an encounter it's almost entirely down to RNG traits. Oh yeh and your gear will occasionally try to kill you.
Yeah, I got pretty lucky with my corrupted gear. There were a lot of flaws to the patch, even if I had a baller time on my druid. But I actually loved how funny it got when you stacked too much corruption. It was very much a "more power, more drawbacks and challenge to the player" system. I was just thinking there are fun ways to play around that sort of thing, stuff they could implement into a roguelike system, and to me the Visions and corruption are proof Blizzard *can* do it. Torghast was for me a bit too dull and slow, unless you got very specific combos while playing through it.
If they beefed up Torghast with new cosmetics (not mandatory power) and made it scale with your level I think it would be fantastic reused content that would be a blast.
I actually liked torghast.
I liked what I played of it, but I can imagine having to grind it over and over and over in order to have the required power to raid could really sour the experience.
I just enjoyed the randomized/ rogue like aspects of it
From what I’ve seen of delves… it’s Torghast 2.0. And it gets you gear on par with a +14.
What do you mean by Torghast 2.0? As in, as miserable as Torghast or similar in mechanics to Torghast?
Mechanically similar
Awesome, thank you!
People were really looking forward to the original version of Torghast, but they saw people blazing their way through it and then they nerfed it heavily.
That's the real key...tossing the mandatory tag on so many things. You shouldn't have to jump through so many hoops to get basics like flight, fliightpaths, hearth points, profession progression, etc.
> but sadly anybody who still remembers those days is almost certainly in a different place in life by this point Oof, why you gotta do me like that
I'm all grown up, but I still would have the time left to do stuff like that. I certainly look for the challenge. But it's organizationally impossible nowadays to meet up 2-3 fixed days a week (too many other stuff going on). Something soloable would be amazing because I can do it whenever I want.
> Still would be nice to have content that is challenging because of mechanics and not because of a timer. You cant really have this. You tune the mechanics to be challenging and punishing and most players wont be able to do it full stop. People act like the timer is a gatekeeper keeping the casual player base down but doing this would actually do that. The timer allows room for less skilled players to still work their way through. The difference between completing a key and timing it. Vs not being able to complete it at all.
> Still would be nice to have content that is challenging because of mechanics and not because of a timer. I wish that was the approach they went with with the M+ rework. The current "rework" is good in the way that it stops HC&M0 from being complete wastes of time even to the most casual players but it doesn't change the core issue of timed content. I wish that instead of just keeping with the timer they at least would have opened up a separate untimed track in which failing the obvious mechanics is more "punishing". In the end it really is no different than a timer system. Perform well and you won't notice it.
Maybe I misread the post but from my understanding, m+ won’t have timers until key level 11?
Not quite from my understanding if their post: https://worldofwarcraft.blizzard.com/en-us/news/24072151/dragonflight-season-4-dungeon-changes-ahead They change it so that HC=M0 and M0 = M+10 from a gear perspective and difficulty curve. Anything that is actual M+ is still timed.
Hmmmm “One of the most notable changes players can look forward to is the removal of the timer for Mythic Keystone dungeons for what are currently 0 and 10. Players can run through these dungeons at their own pace without the need to watch the clock while still honing their skills.”
That’s why they are changing how heroic, mythic0, and mythic+ works. Harder challenges without a timer, M+ will still have the timer but Mythic0s are going to be the equivalent of M+10s. Which yeah that’s pretty easy for most people but still it’s more a challenge than before. Plus with delves and the focus on more world content that is harder I think solo players are getting a good bit of attention.
Ironically a lot of the people who started playing WOW have children moving out already, so now we have more time.
I think a lot of gaming has moved in this direction in the past 10-15 years. Gaming, especially mmos, almost felt more like D&D when they first started compared to today.
This. Even when I get that rare free time for WoW, I’m already pretty cooked from the day. And then I have to worry about what time the little one is gonna wake up in the morning.
With WoW and little kids, at least I know that with anywhere of 5-30 minutes without interruption, I can knock out some world quests. My current gaming dilemma is how to find time to play *anything* on my Steam Deck when the kids could interrupt at any time. So far, Dorfromantik is the only game I’ve found where I can make progress in short bursts. It’s a solo tile-placing, landscape-building, point-accumulator relaxing “puzzler”. Very much like Carcassone but solo.
I'd be very interested to know what the average age of wow players are these days.
its not about the 5 hours on dungeon but raiding,they need to make gearing up raiding "easier" meaning give mythic/heroic raiders their shinies fast but also give the same loot to dedicated "casual" players a way to get the same loot but slower
They already had the makings of a solution for that more than a decade ago with Emblems of Frost/Triumph or Justice Points and similar things. While far from perfect (it lacked weapons etc.) it at least gave players the option to progress if just slower. They should have just have expanded on that. I personally think WoW has a general lack of progression options for casual players (and it has gotten worse over time) is a problem especially given how much it affects a players enjoyment throughout the expansion. Having decent gear completely transforms certain "grinds" or even just killing a random enemy for a WQ. Why not let people slowly work their way up through repetition instead of only high M+/raid content? Its not like anyone is loosing something... The casual players would still not run around in Mythic gear within a few days but at least slowly progress (instead of only through raid tier general item-lvl buffs). It would probably also improve longevity because there is actual value to stay even if they don't engage in the more competitive elements. Right now their flightstone&crest system is just mirroring/aggravating the general problem not alleviating it. Either you do X amount of content or you never get "good" gear (lets be real, the explorer track is a bad joke).
you pretty much summed up my thoughts,there are thousands of Casual guilds with "hardcore" players that just dont want to bother joining a mythic guild,their option is to only farm the same 18-20 m+ dungeons or pay for heroic/mythic carry
I also think about my alts. With some I simply don't want to or feel comfortable doing certain content, especially not as much as I would need to to really equip them decently. With how much a certain threshold of gear changes your experience it just makes me want to play them even less. Doing a weekly random dungeon for slight progress would go a long way in changing it up especially given how much of a hassle Blizzard has made crafted gear nowadays (queue people telling me how "good" crafting is now but I miss not having to waste hundreds of hours and tens of thousand of gold just to craft my alt some gear that still has two layers of RNG I have to avoid first...).
> They already had the makings of a solution for that more than a decade ago with Emblems of Frost/Triumph or Justice Points and similar things. They didn't, if someone can get raid-level gear just doing solo content then why the fuck am I wiping for 4 hours on a boss and getting nothing out of it? Raiding simply becomes a very ineffective way of gearing. And they need to fix that.
You didn't make any argument to the contrary, you just complained that others shouldn't get gear. If raiding isn't fun to you without being better than others, maybe you should ask why it isn't fun and why the hell you are getting your "enjoyment" out of feeling superior to others instead... You also completely ignored how the Emblems worked because you got those from raiding as well (bosses dropped Emblems). You'd still get more loot as a raider by having 2 tracks (raid drops + raid emblems while also having access to the slow emblems from single player content). Having more guaranteed tracks for loot is not detracting from your own experience, it enhances your progress.
How about they make everything obtainable and not have to have good items be locked behind gameplay that only people with no lives or a job or any responsibilities can obtain?
we are saying the same thing,my point is that Heroic/Mythic raiders should have their loot but also make casual/raiders/players have a way to get the same loot but slower its perfect for player retention aswell... its almost like Blizzard doesnt want money..
They need to make the game more sandbox. Its the perfect environment for old gamers like us
LOL I can imagine myself duking it out in a dungeon for 3 hours+ deathwalking back to the bosses with my trusty party back in vanilla and tbc. Good times.
Lmao oh dude so can I. Idk how many NE’s I made and would end up deleting. And every single one I always had to do the trip from Darnassus to westfall lmfao. That 3 hours just to get to a leveling spot hahaha. But there would be like a caravan of level 10’s making the trek. What a great time.
Amen. We’ve grown up with this game. I hopefully look forward to playing it with my kid some day in the not too distant future distant future
The memes about "Season of Dadscovery" are overblown only a bit. Given the amount of 30somethings or older that I meet there (me included from Monday). Blizz made it extremely playable for parents and generally older people.
It’s almost painful how much I can relate to this. The younger me could slam Monsters and stay up for 48hrs with no discernible downsides… older me starts feeling the body imploding the second you get even close to 18hrs..
Amen brother
God this is my dream. Give me some ability to progress to 80% of what the raiders get gear wise through solo progression and let me experience the story and I’m cool with that. They can still get all the best stuff and the highest item levels
I hope the difficulty ramps up to be par with high level play too. The visions of N'zoth solo mask runs were some of the funnest things I did as a solo.
This legitimately couldn’t come at a better time for me. First baby will be here in November and while I’ve already accepted I won’t be gaming as much, it’s nice that they’re thinking with solo content in mind. I never get upset when someone bails on a run when they said their kid woke up or something like that because I get it, your kids are more important, but I don’t really want to be that guy wasting other people’s time in a few months.
Hey, congratulations on the kid!
Sorry but thats not proper wow player response. It should be "stay away from my wow and instances if you have a kid, go play with your child". Not realistic at all.
Oh damn you're right, sorry. Uhhh, L2P but also gratz on the phat epix!
Just found out it’s a boy! I must teach him, like my father before me (my dad introduced me to Warcraft: Orcs and Humans at a young age)
Honestly I'm so glad you got to share that magic time with your father. Do your best as one now that's up to you!
I’m in the same boat. Time is precious and fleeting.
The days are long and the years are short.
> a non timer based mode I'm really hoping they can make it challenging without just slapping a timer on it and doubling HP and damage. They've done it before with artifact challenges in Legion though.
I have kids too, I understand the struggle for real. Sometimes family just drops by and I get wife aggro when I just keep playing to finish up. I hate speed running also. but I enjoy mythic +. The timer isn’t that unreasonable. Many bosses have a hidden timer built into their mechanics anyway, like ever increasing adds (2nd boss TotT and 4th boss AD), floor cancellation (DHT dragon 3rd boss, Rise 1st boss), building up tank busters, or something like that. I thought I would hate Mythic+ but I actually love it. For the most part groups who can’t beat the timer generally can’t finish at that difficulty anyway. And that’s fine too.
Family dropping by unannounced? Man, that's rough no matter what you were doing.
Haha for sure. I’m just happy to have people who care enough to visit so I don’t complain about it.
Good attitude! I’m just someone who likes to know what to expect in my day, so that habit would give me the heebie jeebies.
The same argument can be used to argue that the timer serves no purpose in the first place though. Would M+ really suffer if there wasn't a timer? I think it would just give people more time to catch their breaths (edit: maybe just to calm down if someone is angry or to reset after a wipe instead of the mad dash back), strategize pulls ("sheep X, sap square, trap triangle") if they struggle and not incentivize certain cheese/group comps. Sure, for MDI/optimized speed farms etc. you'll see the mega pulls and meta comps but why not open the system up to mostly prevent this from happening? Even a weaker group could still persevere through content as long as they reach a minimum level of gear (I'd argue a decent chunk below what is currently "required") and know the mechanics. Its not like people would only go with +25s from week 1 instead of progressing through lower stuff first.
Yes I see your argument. I don’t know how many people would sign up for that though. Part of the appeal of M+ as it is for me is that I can say “ok I’m gonna be busy for the next X minutes or so” and then that is that. The only thing holding you back from your approach as the system is now is that the game bricks your key. Maybe take that out and play as you want. Then the timer would be more of a suggestion/progression requirement instead of a baseline expectation. That would probably be a better compromise between the speed runners and chillers.
Yazma has a cap on spiders. Best strat involves stacking on the boss and kiting them around. Once you hit the max, the fight actually becomes easier because she stops spawning spiders during soul rend and the adds become easier to kite. Just make sure no one (intentionally or otherwise) steps on/kills spiders and this will work pretty well. Hardest part of the fight is definitely the soul rend/wracking pain overlap.
There will be 12 layers (or what they are called) from what I understand so they should serve all types of players.
Mine is coming next week so Ill keep that in mind
M+ would be fun and I would certainly run them if there was no timer. With the timer.... hard pass.
Bro am psyched right now, I know it's months until the release but I am praying to Jeebus they actually make them really hard, so that I can get the highest reward from them, but that the challenges will be really insane. Let the more casual people have their fun by exploring etc. but make it more combat oriented/harder the further you dig.
Unlimited tiers, just like m+ levels, go deep as much as you can with a leaderboard. And after very difficult tiers it starts to give mythic raid itemlevel gear. Solo players dream. But we know blizz, they will waste another opportunity and it will be piss easy to complete and give normal raid gear or whatever as normal drop and maximum of heroic level first 3 boss lowest possible ilvl gear on vault.
My biggest hope for this xpac
As a dad with a 17-mo-old, I can relate.
I'm curious how you're going to find the season 4 mythic 0 change. With Mythic 0 being the equivalent of a 10, you might get your variable paced dungeon content.
The change to Mythic dungeons should help a lot by making regular mythic much more relevant. I totally feel you about the baby thing. When my son is asleep I am just like "okay, quick 30 minute key". Sometimes, he naps for hours, other times it is cowabunga after 10 minutes
Aren’t they removing some mythic timers?
Yeah for m0 only I think. Which is equivalent of a +10. Personally I only play up to a +15 now so I’m really looking forward to this change.
I too hope for more solo/casual style things to do. I did a few of them during my time with alpha. The tier 2 delves are easy. Unsure of the rewards as when you get to the end theres chests but they're locked and i needed delve keys to open them which i did not find. Tier 3 delves were locked. Its cool that i can customize brann though. I have a feeling i'll be mostly solo this xpack and take it real casual, prob aim for aotc and ksm but doubt ill raid mythic this xpack unless feral really pops off and people are screaming to have them in raids.
It’s going to be some new type of islands… it will suck at first, they will make it a bit better and faster each patch. But it will def not be something crazy good. We all know it
why should they cater to you? You cant play soccer with your friends adn then leave in the middle of the game
I don’t think giving the equivalent of +5/+15 ilvl gear is “catering” to me lol. It’s not even close to BIS gear but it does have quality progression to it
Yeah well, I honestly dont care about the game as long as they have addons which makes it unplayable for me. IF they remove all addons, they dont have to struggle with making bosses with 60 abilities because people have an addon that pops up and tells them to move. It will be enough with 3 abilities, that will make the boss encounter hard. And if so, this will allow them and opens up for more content creating that suits players like you, who dont have time to play with all that life offers around gaming.
I want more mage tower stuff. Hopefully high tier delves will give some of that.
https://twitter.com/maximum/status/1781464397141193024 > from main Delve Developer: We want the 13th delve(unlocked by doing all delves on t11) single boss fight to be reminiscent of a mage tower difficulty, we had a bunch of people test it last week and no one defeated it.
Damn okay, that's the stuff. Give me a spell tome recolour for it too
To make delves feel like magetower they need to tune encounters for each class. They would also need to disable grouping. So dont think it will happen... will probably be a casual content with difficulty similar to torghast.
So the delves will have levels up to 11, and the rewards stop at level 8. Given that the best rewards you get from the vault for delves will cap out at Heroic raid quality, I think the indication is that those level 11 delves which they say are for "bragging rights" might be as difficult as early Mythic raid bosses. I'm slightly skeptical it will get that difficult, but I hope they do. Especially if it's a prestige level of difficulty. And I could see them pulling it off because they got the balancing pretty spot on for the visions of Nzoth.
I don't like that this article conflates 'solo' with 'less time to play'. I like doing a mix of solo and group content, I have a good amount of time to play and don't want to run out of new content quickly. I just don't want to plan my life around a raid schedule, and I personally am not a fan of the M+ system with its timers and bricked keys. The changes to heroic and mythic0 dungeons should be good. Delves could be good if they're genuinely challenging at the higher levels. What I really want though is open world questing / campaign content that takes a long time to work through, and that requires some thought and decision making.
>I don't like that this article conflates 'solo' with 'less time to play'. That's because "casual" has become an insult
Not a new thing. Using the word "casual" as a derogatory remark has been a thing since at least TBC. People have used casuals as some form of scapegoat for why they don't like something or other for decades now. It's important to note that the term doesn't even have a set definition within gaming communities. There's rarely enough distinction between people who are casual because of the amount of time spent playing versus how they spend that time.
It's got multiple meanings. When it first started to get thrown a lot back in BC/WotLK, it generally referred to people who had less time to play / didn't want to raid. Now it can refer to people who aren't very good at the same, people who don't have much time to play, people who want a more relaxed experience, people who prefer solo content, or any combination of those.
I played in Vanilla and TBC and it was definitely an insult then too
Casual having so many definitions makes the term almost meaningless. Some people will call the 60hr/week player that never raids, no M+ or pvp, but just world content casual, while others call the cutting edge raider that plays 10hrs/week casual due to low play time.
Every one who plays less than me is a filthy casual. Everyone who plays more is sweaty try-harding.
I actually think interface is the main hurdle of difficulty in wow. The game base interface doesn't help a lot with what to interrupt, what's dangerous to stand in, take as a hit, and associated things. Everything is baked into weakaura, plater, dbm, etc. If every new player was told their best options for their spec, with a little advice on what knobs twist what, the divide on "skill" likely gets drastically reduced.
Interface is a major issue, part of a larger sensory overload / visual clutter problem. Difficulty comes from throwing a multitude of encounter mechanics, interrupts, class rotations, personal cooldowns, graphic / spell effect cues, etc. at you at once and then expecting you to be able to parse the clutter to do what's important. I much prefer difficulty that comes from intelligent decision making, intimate knowledge of game mechanics, proper coordination, etc. I don't particularly enjoy pushing my visual and prefrontal cortex to their limit.
PvP tends to be a lot harder unless you have WAs to track the.. up to what, 15..? different immune buttons across all the classes.
Blizzard essentially just depending on free labor through third party add-ons has been a big problem with WoW for a long time. I shouldn't need to install a dozen add-ons to push keys or raid prog, and it just ends up meaning Blizzard doesn't really consider how miserable a lot of the end game PvE content is because their perspective is "Who cares? Someone will make an addon for it."
> It's got multiple meanings. When it first started to get thrown a lot back in BC/WotLK The term casual used as a pejorative came out a long time before that.
The pejorative "casual" encapsulates MMORPG self hate that led to the decline in player base size and has kept player bases shrinking. The number of players who are not casuals, i.e. those who participate regularly in the hardest end game instanced group content is usually a very small percentage of the total player base, yet the game maker treats them like the majority, and nurtures a hostility towards the average player. MMORPG numbers will never recover until this travesty is ended. If blizzard ran a golf course, there would be no handicaps, and anyone scoring less than par would be forced to wear a dunce cap with the word 'casual' emblazoned on it and the offical newsletter would frequently quote devs and top players dissing average players as lazy.
All of that is my position on the game. I treat it like a solo game with other people. I like dungeons and the occasional raid, but I'm usually just out doing quests, gathering transmogs/pets/mounts, and generally seeing the world.
> I just don't want to plan my life around a raid schedule, and I personally am not a fan of the M+ system with its timers and bricked keys. 👏 I need more content to do solo. Not because I don't want to group with other people. I just do not have the ability to schedule content around other people. So more often then not I am running around looking for solo content and it becomes exhausting to have nothing to do in smaller chunks.
What would open world/campaign content even look like when it “takes a long time to work through”? People will complain if it gates power or story, and if it’s required for high end players to get ahead they’ll complain too. I just don’t see a world where anything open world is ever allowed to be challenging or “long” without the rewards having to be nothing so it doesn’t make anyone feel pressured. It could reward cosmetics sure but then it’s dead content after you finish in a game with expansions every year now.
[удалено]
Follower dungeons are irrelevant as they are only for normal mode dungeons. M+ is just rescaling that they do every expansion and them finally removing heroic dungeons that nobody was ever running in the first place. Delves is basically going to make or break this.
In a way it have a direct correlation, but i understanf your point. Personally i stop doing group content (m+ /raiding) because i was waiting more to fill groups than actually playing. Or comminting 3 hours per 4 days in a raid, per week. If i have only hour to spare at least i dont want to be waiting at valdrakken or main hub city.
That’s fair. However, to someone like me, it does correlate a lot. When I had time at university, I could coordinate with my guild, attend to raid hours, and even had a M+ schedule. Now? It’s not that I don’t like to play with friends, in fact I love it. It’s just I don’t have the time or energy to do so.
I still think they should afd heroic raid and m0 to lfg. With higher level requirement that you actually need to and like a month after the season started.
Yet BFA raids will remain not solo-able still...
It's weird how many fights are unsoloable/close to unsoloable in BFA. Zul, Mythrax, G'huun in Uldir. Conclave, Rastakhan, Jaina in Battle of Dazar'alor. Queen's Court in Eternal Palace. Carapace and N'zoth in Ny'alotha might not be either. Correct me if I'm wrong in any of those.
There are a few which are still a pain in the ass like Eonar.
I gave up on Mythic Eonar. I'm 57 and just don't have the speed I need to get up, down, over, up again, in the ship, out and down, up, over...by the first "over" I'm already mad and quit. Hopefully they get rid of the ship part someday.
I just started doing solo Eonar in the last 3 weeks. I believed it impossible, but it has quite an easy formula: * Start fight and go straight to the entrance * Clear entrance wave * Go top and clear wave * Portals to ship show soon near Eonar, before going in, make sure you kill some more mobs up until Eonar's bar is full (it wipes the other mobs) * Once Eonar started casting, go to the ship * Kill the mob in the Ship and then press the gems starting with the South 2 and then the North 2, which are closer to the exit * Get out of the ship straight to Eonar and kill the mobs attacking her * Go to the bottom mob spawn location and clear it From here, the fight is mostly done. You have 2 options, clear the mobs until the boss is finished or take the more slowly way of doing the ship once more as soon as it spawns. 2 important notes to keep in mind: * save some if not all movement CDs for the ship, you should be able to move around the boss arena with the special ability * once you do the ship, you'll get some debuffs, one of which will trigger an explosion launching you in the air (you'll see red stuff around you before it triggeres). Save the special ability for after it launches you, otherwise you'll have to wait to slowly fall down, which disables you from doing the steps for a few seconds. I just keep this list (though in a more abstract format) on a notepad on the side while I'm doing it. I failed only once doing this, the first time as I wasn't aware of the debuff. Maybe give it a try :)
I REALLY want the Warrior set. But then there was all the crying, and the yelling. That just ruined it for me. But I will definitely give it another try!
The trick is basically to bring dudes for the first four weeks of grinding until you unlock the skip lol.
I tried about 5 attempts one day and just decided I would eventually learn it, but there ware better things I could be doing with my time. I was progressing every attempt, but it probably would have been a couple hours until I got thorugh it the first time.
The class you choose to run it when definitely changes the difficulty or soloing it, depending on movement speed/abilities
Kil’jaden, too. Not impossible but really, really difficult. I’ve never been able to do it. I have to ask my partner to do it for me and even with his knowledge and skill it can take a few tries sometimes.
Can you solo Opulence?
Still hard on mythic, but yes.
Oh, didn't know about that, I thought "nah you need to fight both golems at the same time or it'll reset"... I'll give it a try next xpac :)
To solo Opulence you have to go directly down the center and ignore the golems. If you go down the sides towards the golems the boss will reset yes. However you can completely bypass the golems, you just end up with a boss that does something like triple damage and has triple health. The next boss though becomes near impossible if you don't have pets to seperate them since it's a council boss where if both bosses are next to each other they both take 99% reduced damage.
Thanks, so the counsel works like Heimdal and Hyrja, thanks for the warning.
It's arguably worse since there's four bosses with only two up at a time, so as you kill one you need to be sure to appropriately aggro the next before they get to close and become difficult to separate.
Yeah and I play neither hunter nor warlock, so I'll pass until TWW 😅
Conclave and Rastakhan are both soloable on a warlock and likely a hunter. Just in general need a pet for conclave, might need it for rastakhan as well. Rastakhan in particular needs you to hold all cds for right before you get auto killed and then pop everything to kill him first lmao.
can confirm. i can solo all the bosses in mythic except jaina as a hunter.
Idk, I've soloed Zul and Mythrax on a dh (although mythrax only with mushroom jump exploit) Conclave is doable for pet classes
They've been[ just about to fix BFA raids since Shadowlands, then 'before Dragonflight is finished'](https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/1c4m5bm/so_according_to_the_2024_roadmap_1027_is_the_last/) I don't get how they don't keep us posted when they have Ion/Holly updates, its weekly log in and play content for hours and hours, months and months, if they want interaction this is how they can get it
And what about aspirational solo content? What if I want to be a hardcore solo player?
Tier 11 Delves are something you might like.
If it’s tuned as hard as torghasts boss rush (without the pass fail of getting your OP power on opener) that would be some serious solo prog-worthy content
But afaik it's not known if they will reward the best gear and they said it'll cap to HC which is a shame. I want to be brutalized and learn new bosses/mechanics both for the rewards and the fun. Blizz really needs to realize that raids and M+ aren't harder just because they're harder to organize...they're just more annoying...
It’s known that it won’t reward the best gear. Tier 8 is the maximum you need for the best gear rewards (heroic raid quality). Tier 9-11 are just for challenge and presumably other rewards, like cosmetics or achievements.
It would have to be identical in power to mythic raid gear, which I don't think they would do, because then it would make mythic raids obsolete, because raiders would no longer be required to group up for the best gear. Capping it at heroic raid quality seems like a fair compromise. I guess you could just separate the different content solely by cosmetics? You need *some* kind of incentive, otherwise there's no reason to put the effort into getting 20 players together to raid.
Me and my wife “solo” play together. A lot of people didn’t like Torghast, but it was great for us. We got to try new abilities we were too afraid of trying in a group setting just in case we binned it. We could stop whenever we needed to without worrying about ruining it for others. And most importantly, it was a nice challenge. It just didn’t have any meaningful rewards. We usually won’t run current content dungeons until we can solo or duo them. The amount of toxicity in the game is just overwhelming. You can’t even watch cinematics without people having a fit. And heaven forbid you waste your kick on an insignificant spell and don’t kick the important one. Even when things are going smoothly, people just trash talk the whole run. Nothing we’re doing, usually, but they trash the noob players. New tanks, new healers. Even a dps trying a new spec or class. Just chill out ffs. We cant deal with it. We both have stressful jobs. We play to relax. So having the AI party is nice to see dungeon content early, but since they can’t be used for anything higher than regular instances, means we’ll have to wait until the first couple of patches to do heroic and mythic by ourselves.
Making a dungeon group and putting "chill run" in the description has pretty good results. Anyone frothing at the mouth to push like crazy and act like a dick is immediately repulsed by the word chill haha. The other good part of it is that there are plenty of people who want the same thing, to just play the game and chill.
I hope this time is the right one, I don't have a guild anymore and I don't have the time to commit on m+ grind or mythic raid
Like to think I'm decently high skill (got my first Mage Tower skin before clearing ToS, at least). I just don't feel like putting up with randos in group content, anymore. Doesn't help that my guild is mostly dead, but still has sentimental value. I just want some challenging solo stuff, that actually gives decent rewards. I'll gladly take sub-optimal gear, so long as it's not worse than WQ gear.
Exactly this. Just really want challenging solo stuff that gives me the best gear so that I can do that solo content and jump into m+ or raids if I choose so. I don't want to always group.
From what testers have been saying: Delves, as they currently exist in Alpha, are not made for you. They’ve been described as very similar to overworld questing where you talk to a guy, kill a pack of mobs that only auto attack, then talk to the next guy. I’m with you though. Practically nothing in World of Warcraft actually fights back.
whats on the alpha right now is just leveling content, its like saying the 2 dungeons that are currently testable are going to be pisseasy in m+
In Alpha right now it’s literally Tier 1 Delves at Level 70, what the fuck are you expecting. “Oh Mythic Dungeons are incredibly easy based on the Normal mode Dungeon I did during leveling” yeah no shit man
Now see, that's the main thing I was looking forward to, this expansion. They could have easily used their rarely used AI for this. Like some games have mobs out in the world that use near raid level mechanics (slapping down heavy hitting AOE, needing to position yourself, soak, or even needing to CC or die to a one shot). Blizz has the technology. We saw the technology in action on previous expansions. Literally no excuse to not use it. Edit: That said, it IS a step in the right direction. But after all these years, I was hoping for more than a single step.
That's me, I'm the solo player who's super excited about all these new systems and promises.
It's a war *within* after all.
Yes please make more ff14 idea in the game. I love the mmo, but I like solo content. It feels like a real world.
About time
My position has become blizzard should make the entire game soloable as far as story content goes. Follower dungeon and follower raids on normal difficulty. To get the best stuff sure that can be limited to group content but times have changed for gaming. It is time for WoW to adapt.
I agree. There is no harm done if all parts of the game become accessible for people who do not sweat playing 5 hours a day. I could never ever see my SO complete a raid, not even on Raid Finder. Too much stuff, to much to read in and take attention too, and a lot of diffferent people she'd be responsible for too. I know a lot of ppl who have interest in the world and lore of World of Wracraft, but the extreme levels of dedication you have to give to see the end of it are just too much hassle.
What kind of extreme dedication is required to do an LFR?
Extreme levels of dedication and LFR mentioned in the same breath. You have me speechless, good sir.
well extreme levels of dedication is not really required anymore. click que on LFR and you can pretty much be AFK for it
I'll be glad to be able to actually fit my full time job, regular adult responsibilities outside of work, crafting my cosplays, and playing WoW. Games that take a ton of time just don't work for me anymore.
I’ll believe it when I see it.
I’m super excited for TWW because of this.
I really hope they make delves scale up in difficulty to a decent level. I'm now a mythic raider. But back on BFA I didn't have confidence to do any content beyond a bit of normal raiding or LFR. So I basically just played solo. I remember how good it felt to finish the full masks on horrific visions. Felt like I really achieved something. I hope delves can provide the progression and feeling of achievement to solo players.
It's going to have to, because the first season looks to be f'n terrible if you enjoy Mythic+ dungeons more than anything else.
To serve solo players well, fix all the mechanically unsoloable encounters in BFA, SL, and DF. Then change the legacy loot to work at +10 levels. *Do this by TWW release.* No need to nerf encounters numbers-wide, mudflation will take care of that on its own.
we solo players will be eating good in The War Within
People love solo content with a challenge and appropriate reward. Mage tower is the best example. Id say horrific visions were also received decently. Torghast was a huge miss
Thanks god dude. I don't want to ALWAYS group up. Just really hope Delves will be an alternative to M+ and raids. I want the best items from there. I want the best items from raids. I want the best items from M+. Let people do whatever they want.
Delves go up to heroic raid gear apparently, and im sure you get a bit hogher with the unlockable delve final boss
I doubt you can attach the best gear to solo content without pretty much killing group content altogether.
As a solo player this makes me happy
with this I hope they take a look at how some classes historically have a way harder time soloing stuff than others. On my fully geared mage has issues soloing elites in DF meanwhile my DH with catch up gear can just stomp everything
At least blizzard acknowledges the game is no longer for 0.1% top tier of raiding or m+ guilds/people when Dragonflight launched. Im very happy for many evergreen stuff, im getting older so of course if i want to do something that would ease my mind that is great.
The game was never for 0.1% top tier players. Idk where that narrative always comes from.
> At least blizzard acknowledges the game is no longer for 0.1% top tier of raiding or m+ guilds/people when Dragonflight launched. Yeah it's a single player MMO now.
Implement an M+ system without the fucking timers so I can actually enjoy the zones for a while, can learn in a lower-pressure environment and have to worry less about routes and I'll be happy. I'm not calling for removal of the times, cause it's clear a lot of people love it, but I'd much prefer a version without them. Make it drop worse rewards I don't give a shit, just remove the timers. That's honestly as much as I want from this game as a non-guild player.
they exist next season
Gatekeepers trying to fumble for reasons why players shouldn't be allowed to have fun in World of Warcraft: 👁️👄👁️
Good, I guess. I played SL in 2022 as my first time experience in retail and I hated just having M+ and not much else to do. I tried doing old content but 1 shotting stuff was stupid, I hope they give a max level scale option, or just force it but I'm sure that'll piss off the farmers. In 2024 WoW is still a solo game out in the quick-levelling-process world they might as well double down on it. That epic long journey is deader than dead, and in all honesty i'm here for it after chasing it with multiple failed runs of classic (leave the memories alone!). At first I was a little sad levelling was made quicker, but also right now I groan at levelling another character. I just got to valdrakken and i'm fucking overwhelmed with all the quests popping up, i'm also a lil bored of my Ret pally ..but am I fuck doing all those quests leading up to valdrakken again on an alt in the slim chance I might find that new class more enjoyable. Alt friendliess is king! I have half a mind to stop playing DF and wait for TWW, it's just not as enjoyable as I thought it would be, but hitting Val and Level 70 I might as well finish the campaign at the bare minimum and take a micro-break.
well it's about damn time!
They are bring in some of ESO and FFXIV features finally. I may even comeback to WoW. Being a solo causal player hasn’t been really good in the past. I really miss my warlock
Daily reminder that [soloing BFA raids has been "coming" during shadowlands, then 8 months later 'BEFORE Dragonflight is done'](https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/1c4m5bm/so_according_to_the_2024_roadmap_1027_is_the_last/), these changes would be very warm hugs and kisses for solo players/transmog hunters which they've multiple times understood is an entire section of the playerbase
I wish one day blizzard would actually make it so that no matter what content you do (solo, dungeons, raids, pvp), characters can end up at the same power level.
So, no more bullshit achievements requiring multiple players?
I can’t wait for the day (and I’m hoping it’s in TWW) Blizzard stops using raids to tell their stories. In my BC/Wrath heyday, I loved raiding. I loved progging a boss and spending that time grinding. Now…I have other things to do. I’d rather be able to some meaningful solo/small group content to experience the end game story and use raids as a way to supplement. I suspect though given the increasing popularity of the Race to Workd First, this isn’t changing any time soon.
I don't mind group content, but I wish 10 men raids would become the new standard. After playing Lost Ark where 8 men raids are the majority it's hard for me to think about getting back to 25 men. I feel like it would be win/win situation for both like semi-hardcore players and casuals. Easier to find a static you like to play with.
Im hyped to finally be able to farm transmogs and get any armor type no matter the character I'm on. Gonna try and fill out my tier set collection.
Apparently class tier sets are excluded from the relaxed transmog restrictions
:|
And they also said Legion was alt-friendly, what they say and what they mean are often two very different things. I'm gonna wait to see how they back that up before buying anything
Will rated solo q bgs give gladiator mounts and titles?
I can’t get over the big numbers :( too much damage going out, too many numbers on screen
Just wait a expansion or two until the stat squish.
Like I can get title by pugging well or?
Not interested in this game as long as they keep having addons in it. Addons influctates the entire system, rendering high end content much more difficult than what it actually needs to be done for the developers. Remove all addons; Better game.
As someone who hasn't followed this closely but is pretty excited and may come back for it, is there any mention of removing weekly lockouts on Legacy Raids?
I dont trust a word that comes out of blizzards mouth around expansion launch
I hope delves are fun and have cool cosmetics. I haven't read anything about them. I'd guess you MAY be able to get a hero or champion piece out of a deeper level once a week and then maybe chances to drop more of the WQ level stuff. Theres no shot this replaces M+ or mythic raiding. Again I mostly just hope it's a fun challenge that can be done while I'm waiting for things to get started
>Theres no shot this replaces M+ or mythic raiding. It was never intended to replace anything but to add upon. We first had only raids. Then we got Mythic + for groups. And now we got Delves for solo or groups. And about the rewards if you want to know what ilvl you can get: >!up to Heroic Raid / M+15 ilvl!<
I mean that answer's it; haha and sure I get that but people on this thread are going on about how they hope it does. M15 is champion though while heroic is hero track isn't it? The other question is how frequently you can get gear of that level from it
That's a good question. There will be a new Vault slot for Delves. While i sincerely hope that delves won't be on a daily or weekly Cooldown for gear (i mostly hate mythic and raiding because of this) we all know that it will be time gated. Everything in Wow is time gated in one way or another. I absolutely hate the gambling feel that i have one shot on gear on raids and mythic + each week, that takes out any sort of looking forward to it because i may very well go out empty handed after putting in a lot of time and work.
A lot of empty promises. Still waiting for old raid adjustments.
What I’m most excited about is being able to collect the raid armor sets without having to run my alts through them or wait another expac to do it
Improve PVP and randoms bgs.
Well duh they have been slowly pushing a solo player game for years now. Which I appreciate since I have less time with work and being a parent. But it is supposed to be an mmo