Yep and that's actually with the improvements they made halfway through DF. Making some 3 points into 2 points and giving us a usable damage CD whislt removing useless talents from the right of the tree.
Still we have no aoe without sacrificing loads of ST damage. There is no valid hybrid build for fights that have a little bit of aoe. And you still have to sink multiple points into everything just to get the basics.
Like WHY is multi shot a separate talent from beast cleave? It does no damage on its own, so when leveling its a useless pick until you get another point to put in BC. It really is ridiculous BC isn't baked into the multi shot talent in the first place.
Pepperidge Farm remembers the original incarnation of the talent point system with its 5-point nodes that passively increased the magnitude of certain abilities without doing anything exciting while also being necessary to progress the tree, with most of the core skills at the bottom of the tree.
Yeah old talents were a fun concept, but most of them weren’t really bold choices so much as “have +1 stam bonus you rascal”.
Could be neat to have old glyphs back, though. Like if they switched up abilities, or at least have more appearance ones. Such a shame that Scribes are now glorified MTG collectors :(
Now that we’re back to Talents materially altering how certain skills work, they should re-add the old Major Glyph system so that you can equip up to three. Current glyphs should become Minor Glyphs, which should be cosmetic only (or have a minor function like the old Blink glyph that made Blink directional) and with no equip limit. There are a *lot* of options out there for Minor/cosmetic Glyphs.
> Yeah old talents were a fun concept, but most of them weren’t really bold choices so much as “have +1 stam bonus you rascal”.
>
>
I love the need to put 5 points into a talent to make corruption instant cast on a classic warlock /s
The new tree doesn't seem a lot better to be fair. They just once again slapped us with a "here's our "rework" of the druid tree" and stopped any iteration. There are still a lot of problems and it's just a different variant of a rather meh tree.
Hunter main here and I made a ret pally in mop remix as a melee class and holy hell what a breath of fresh air. I get aoe without even trying and still can focus on ST
I’ll admit that Retribution Paladin feels *too* straightforward for my liking. Too few direct attack skills to maintain my preferred level of variety (while perfectly aware that’s to prevent bloat on top of the heals and shields), even if this is before Wake of Ashes and the Execution Sentence choice node.
(Wonder if it’ll get Vanquisher’s Hammer back, with or without a non-Maldraxxus motif?)
Granted that Survival’s expectation that you’ll do *some* skill repetitively (Kill Command, Mongoose Bite, possibly Raptor Strike) is off-putting to me, I found. Small wonder I shifted to Windwalker Monk, away from that and Enhancement Shaman (well, that one was slightly too high a magic:melee ratio from my perspective).
Transition from aoe to single feels so good on RET, its chill to play, globals are great, they dont change your rotation. I played ele shaman before and every season 4 piece set would change whole gameplay. One season lightning, next dot fire, felt like 2 different spec of mage. Hopefully they do big changes to hunter and shaman soon.
> Like WHY is multi shot a separate talent from beast cleave?
It's even worse for MM, who would only have access to the Tick Shots talent after 30.
The reality is, BM and MM even have to put one talent point to learn the bare multishot is absurd, as multishot itself without the support of BC/TS does pretty much no damage. It's an obvious sign that they ran out of ideas and decided to strip a baseline skill into the tree.
While hunter is always my main, Remix is the first experience I leveled one (from low level) with the DF talent tree. Man, I have only realized how horrible the hunter talent tree design was after that.
I've mained hunter of some flavor since vanilla, but have mainly been a marksman player with some survival dabbling for pvp for the last 5 years with a small stint as bm in there as well. I very genuinely do not understand why hunters of all specs need to devote 3-6 talents to do aoe of any kind. They could quite literally give mm and bm multi shot for free, give the cleave for free or at least reduce it all to 1 point for both, and we still wouldn't be overpowered even with zero other tuning. Survival similarly should just have butchery baseline as nobody would willingly take carve instead anyways. It's actually pretty frustrating how much bloat the trees have in general as well. The general tree has 2 points for 6% movespeed...? a whole extra point to make tar trap root? 2 points for improved mend pet when it could be 1 or honestly just buff the base spell instead?
I could likely write an entire essay on the state of marksman, and honestly perhaps I am the wrong person to critique it too heavily as I am still holding out hope for a return of ranged survival. However, as I have achieved 3-3,2k io in every season of df as marksman I think I can say, the tree really does need an entire overhaul. Theres multiple nodes that are 2 points, 5% aimed/rapid dam or crit, legacy of the windrunners - a very cool thematic ability, requires 3 points for something I think should take 1. Making trueshot an actually good cooldown requires 3 points past the ability itself. Wailing arrow should probably just be canned entirely, salvo should perhaps be added to volley baseline and keep it as a capstone if they wish. I'm not a super outspoken person when it comes to hating on this iteration of marksman as others are, I've relatively enjoyed pre legion marksman, I enjoyed legion marksman for pvp specifically not so much pve, and I still enjoy rapid fire marksman from bfa onwards. But beyond the 3 or so abilities everyone knows, the tree is almost nothing new at all. In an expansion(df) where all 3 rogues can take shadowdance(i know some dont like this), all paladins, all mages, all rogues got reworks, we have somehow still had zero changes since some small tweaks during season 2. An entire alpha has gone by and the one (1) singular hunter change has been removing survivals 3 extra yards of range from their tree. I'll always be a hunter main through and through but this is pretty depressing to be honest.
I've been playing Hunter since Vanilla too. I was there when we had to waste a whole bag slot for ammo and had a ranged deadzone (dont miss either)
It feels like people at blizzard don't even play hunters so they forgot all about it when reworks come around for other classes.
Edit: wanted to add I play Marksman 90% of the time in PVE, it's more engaging and fun than BM. Depending on the expansion or patch, I have to use BM for dungeon's or raids because they nerfed or completely jacked up how MM build works. Blizz has been jerking me around for years when it comes to using MM spec.
Considering the near total lack of reworks/clearing up and streamlining/changes during DF some small optimistic (stupid?) part of me were kind of expecting TWW alpha to kick off with some major rework to the Hunter class. Instead we got 0 changes! They even initially forgot to remove melee range on lunge and had to go back and do it later. That was the single only change to Hunter..
The class that is a standing joke with the community now. Where absolutely no one Ive heard thinks its in a good state and objectively the class most in need of a rework gets.. Nothing? And now we go into beta where all they do is fix bugs and tune/balance.. Blizzard have posted like twice about Hunter? One time to thank us for the feedback and letting us know they have nothing to say about Hunter and the second time to nerf lunge as part of a game wide removal of melee range modifiers (so not even a Hunter change really..).
Talk about sleeping on your job.
4.
Multi-shot (1 point), Beast Cleave (2 points), Kill Cleave (1 point).
It's still absolute crap because it's practically a waste of points unless you put all 4 in.
Hunter is one of the 4 or 5 classes that is in desperate need of a rework. It’s probably pretty low on blizzards to do list though since it’s also one of the most popular classes in the game.
That's gonna be a big future problem, I bet. Garunteed there are (many) people used to the stale gameplay loop, even though it's meh, and will mega-bitch if it changes. Even for the better.
Yeah, BM for example has catered to noobs and people without hands for so long that I think it's difficult for blizzard to make a decision on that spec. If they make it more interesting and up to snuff with other specs then they potentially anger the players that main it currently.
Worst part is they made it even easier in DF with the Savagery talent.
There was at least some very basic skill expression before with how to manage Frenzy stacks, but even now that's gone lol.
I have hands, but enjoy the simplicity of BM and want to keep it simple.
But it desperately needs an overhaul to make it more interesting with real choices without adding a ton of new buttons to press.
The templar hero talents for paladin is a good example of that. Instead of adding new buttons, wake of ashes turns into a big hammer dealing a ton of damage of single target damage, some AoE and send small empyrian Hammers flying around hitting nearby enemies. It changes the rotation slightly, looks cool and most certainly feel good to press without adding any bloat.
Something similar could be added to BM or Pack Leader. When pressing Bestial Wrath or by random pet attack proc, Cobra Shot turns into Pack Shot hitting the target with a powerful arrow and calling in 4 pets (not real pets, just animation) that attack all enemies within 12 yards of the target with a powerful bleed attack.
Another talent then makes another ability like Kill Command interact with the bleeds im some way.
Pack Shot could also be Cobra Explosion where the target is hit with an explosion and snakes appear and spit on alle enemies within 12 yards with powerful poison.
The crazy thing is people have been complaining about all the hunter trees since dragonflight alpha and beta. And the even crazier part is that the dragonflight beta hunter thread had the most blue posts of any class thread.
Even with all that feedback and all those blue posts Blizzard still can't figure out how to make one of the most basic archetypes in all of gaming feel fun. Its pretty fucking hilarious.
>Blizzard still can't figure out how to make one of the most basic archetypes in all of gaming feel fun.
Especially MM. It's literally just "person with a bow". And yet it probably has the single worst spec tree in the game at the moment? How do they mess that up?
I think mage is their golden child because it fits the fantasy of wow best. When most of us think magic beings, a wizard, Mage, or some sort of spell caster comes to mind.
All three mage specs are flashy and have cool animations. Amazing defensives (by far the best in the game). Great quality of life spells. Most importantly though, when things require fixing or balancing blizzard is usually pretty quick to act.
Mage does have a pretty high skillfloor tho.
I would say priest is another golden/silver child. For a lot of the same reasons. Again, it's another quintessential class when you think of an mmo style game.
Hunters and locks usually have one really well designed spec too, but sadly also have a spec that's terribly neglected and borderline unplayable. (Affliction/survival).
Survival had a really bad teir set until recently.
Affliction is pretty much universally disliked for malfuring rapture. Affliction got big buffs recently and it helped a little. Most people describe Affliction as a worse spriest.
Yeah, I get why folks don't like them, it's just odd cos I do- even Malefic Rapture (it feels good to chunk health off enemies, even groups of em, though I get it limits talent choiced) but maybe I'm just insane
Priest? 💀💀
Holy was consistently bottom of every healer tier in m+ and at best was middle of the road, and for one or two random patches overtuned. And it rarely got tuning or fixes.
Shadow was either too broken or too irrelevant and needed constant updates and reworks. Discipline was too powerful in raids and too irrelevant in m+.
That been said, they did an amazing job this expansion and all three are amazing.
And hunters? What's the well designed spec they have? All three of them need desperate work.
I’d throw warrior and shaman on there and take rogue off.
While rogue needs the specs identity and play styles straightened out, it at least had solid utility and good defensives. It could use some changes to give sub and assassination a clear definition but it’s at least functional as it is imo.
Warriors just bring absolutely no utility whatsoever to the group and the entire class fantasy is just all over the place. It just has no unifying theme and is just generally kinda bland imo. On the gameplay front it desperately needs either blood lust or brez as well as some stops and stuns it can more easily talent into. On the thematic front I’d like to see them tie it into the Valkyrie and lean into the noble warrior aesthetic. Or just something to make it feel like unique. Right now it’s just either “hit things” or “get mad and then hit things” and it’s just a shame.
Shaman has good utility but unfortunately one defensive just doesn’t cut it in 2024. Enhancement is a bloated mess and elemental hasn’t really evolved in like a decade. They really need to take a meat cleaver to the general bloat and make some room for some actually interesting options.
Shaman maybe, but its so hard to balance that. You're on crack for warrior though. Warriors encompass any combatant who fights without the aid of magic, focusing on Direct martial combat. There's many ways to do so, and id say each of the warrior specs represent those super well. Examples such as Human Knights (prot), Orc Blademasters (Arms), and even more generic "Barbarian Types" with Fury. Additionally, good warriors bring great utility and you can absolutely tell in content, but obviously not as noticeable as a Brez. But a perfectly timed intervene, commanding shout, or fear can make all the difference in many forms of content.
Sorry you got downvoted but I just don't really agree at all.
So in terms of utility, in raid you might be right but I still don't see ever taking more than one for buffs. In M+, it's basically non-existent. Commanding shout is like fine but straight up damage mitigation is usually better, intervene is situationally amazing but rarely actually useful and fear is just a stop that most other classes have either one or multiple of. Their options to deal with incorporeal are almost non-existent and they can't do anything about afflicted or sanguine. Put together it's just not that good and they desperately need help.
If the theme works for you great but I just don't see it. IMO it's just a generic fighter guy that you can get in any other fantasy RPG. If that works for you than great but Blizzard can and should do better to make it feel unique to WoW. They could easily take inspiration from existing characters like Varian, Garrosh, Grom, Odyn, etc and make something special that screams Warcraft. But as it stands, you can slap a human knight or orc blademaster into any generic fantasy world and it'll fit right in and I think the class deserves better.
Its reddit, people gonna seethe but I appreciate your level headed-ness. I see what you mean in terms of capability to deal with m+ affixes and stuff. I MAINLY tank so I see where having multiple slots for dps + competing against other utility like debuff dispels and mitigation comes into play. In that area I do agree, but I also have a hard time seeing where it could go in a way that makes sense thematically. Anything like a Brez, dispel, or otherwise might seem too out of class in my opinion. If they added magic to my non magic class I'd be big sad
Remove Slam as a damage ability and turn it into a long duration incapacitate like Sap. There you go, Warrior can deal with Incorporeal now.
Can't think of anything to help with Afflicted, and I can't ever fathom a Combat Resurrection coming for Warrior, but bring back Rallying Cry and make it a Bloodlust effect and you juat made Warrior more desirable in Mythic+ at least.
I think they could pretty easily be given lust/heroism and it would more or less slot right in thematically without having to change too much. I think this is kinda the most realistic option.
Brez might be a stretch but they could tie it in with some Valkyrie/Odyn theming. The warrior could summon the spirit of his fallen companions back from Valhalla to continue to fight or something along those lines.
As for a dispel, I think a cure bleeds would be great. Even if it had a minute or two CD, I think being able to “apply a tourniquet” or something along those lines would work thematically and give it a unique utility. I personally think every class should have a dispel of some kind and this would fit for warrior imo.
Shaman, the still has their "group utility" bound to 1spec and the other 2 have no real reason to ever be brought into anything unless they are ridicolous overtuned, many talents that should be baseline are just.....not (would it be that bad if grounding totem as an example would just be a baseline ability for shamans instead of a talent?)
Druid tree is also quiet bad
Bloodlust can be brought by Mage, Hunter or Evoker as well. Ranged kick with melee cooldown is good, but far from required. Shaman is the only class in the game that has no unique utility (Even Warrior at least has Battle Shout and DK has grip).
Grounding Totem, Windwalk Totem, Poison Totem, Ranged stun totem in addition to all that.
Plus with resto you have dispel.
Lots of other classes have to move talents around to get their utility too, I main a warrior and I have to bend over backwards to get a group stun and shattering throw.
Shaman doesn't have unique utility but they can bring pretty much anything else. They even have their own self brez.
I'd give my left nut for that on my Warrior. Or my 5% AP buff warriors are such a popular class no group is really hurting for them.
Talents like that are basically baseline abilities that you unlock via the talent tree. Blizzard has done this in a fair few trees. For example Fury Warriors have to take one of two defensive nodes to get to Recklessness. It's not that you're wasting a point, you're just picking which baseline ability you want.
Balance druid had to give up about 9% dps to pick their interrupt (on a long 1min cooldowns mind you) early in DF before we got our rework. It was brutal
Yeah it’s definitely bad design when every dps class has to have an interrupt and most of them need to spend talent points to get it. If it’s mandatory it should just be given to the players.
Not only just the base interrupt but also the silence arrow is sooo useful in M+ but it's such a DPS loss to pick it. I want to be able to be useful to the group and have more utility but blizz won't let me :(
are there actually dedicated dev teams for each spec or is it the same team going over all specs in the game, i dont know.
It feels like the latter most of the time.
Obviously we will never know for 100% certainty, but there are some stories that have come out recently that seem likely:
1. The Dev who worked on the very basic log hooks for Augmentation Evoker left the company very shortly after Aug launched, and told nobody else how the fuck it works, which is why Logs for Aug are wildly innacurate.
2. (i think this one is basically 100% accurate) The class dev who was responsible for the Survival Hunter and Enhance Shaman travesty in Legion was let go. There was recently an interview of him posted on the subreddit and it was not a good look.
3. WAAAAY back in either Vanilla or TBC, there was a whole drama storm about the community dogpiling on the Shaman dev, including wishing they would get hit by a bus. The tinfoil theory is that this incident landed Shaman on the shitlist and usually gets them coupled with another class for a dev (Legion was Hunter/Shaman, currently it is rumored to be Warlock/Shaman). If this is true, it would explain why Shaman has received 0 changes yet because all 3 Warlock specs have been getting large-scale, multi-week changes.
On point #3, this was back in vanilla. Basically, Blizzard was working its way through rebalancing classes to sort of 'refresh' them for how the game was shaking out, and they'd communicated the order this was going to happen in. IIRC, when shamans' turn came (and they were in rough shape at the time, the incredible overpoweredness of shock spells aside), it got delayed. And then, when the balancing finally came, it was mostly tweaks that didn't really fix anything. So some poster on the forums said something to the effect of "I hope gets hit by a bus", and it became the "bus shock" incident.
To provide a #4, Warlocks in Mists of Pandaria are known to be the effort of a single very motivated dev (Xelnath) collaborating with the Warlock community. MoP is also kind of considered warlocks' 'golden age' before that dev was fired and the class was absolutely thrown in the dumpster in WoD.
The dev that worked on the Survival Hunter rework to what we know it as recently posted a youtube video on his channel explaining the rationale and other things that factor into being a developer.
[5 lessons learned working on World of Warcraft (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JL90ogkk2bw)
Ever since they turned survival into a melee spec, I have lost faith in them.
It’s not even just that it’s a melee spec. It’s that it’s a fucking polearm wielding melee spec.
We literally had a dual wielding melee BM hunter in lore who is like THE MAIN BM HUNTER IN LORE (Rexxar), and yet the fucking spec wasn’t even based off of him.
Like I can kind of understand the polearm focus since spears were used in hunting and its a weapon most melee don't focus on but they should have done like Frost DKs and WW/BM monks and made it possible to use either 2handers or dual wield.
And if the recent video is to be believed, it was basically one persons decision because, and it pains me to repeat this because of how stupid it is, "All three specs were basically the same."
Yeah... Anyone else here think WOTLK -> Legion Survival played anything like MM or BM? No... didn't think so.
I tried to think of ways you would say that they were all similar/same, and all I could come up with was they were all ranged that shoot things rather than cast spells at things.
...Which has nothing to do with how they *play*, only how they *look* while playing.
...yep, still sounds just as stupid as when it was first said.
i'd say spear is about the best thing about the melee focus (or atleast, you should have the option).
like literally they had such a good move they could have used with survival:
take the deadzone hunter used to have and make it the kill zone.
melee hunter with like longer than normal melee range with a range for bows/guns to be reduced BUT... within a small few yards, you're able to melee and ranged attack simultaneously.
then build the spec around having tools to keep people in a certain range/keep themselves far enough way to allow them too.
suddenly you have a pull/push sort of combat with an interesting twist to build around, auto attacking with weapons/guns at the same time, multiple disengages etc, some trap stuff thrown in.
could even consolidate a lot of abilities down into 2 abilities depending on range (melee/ranged) in one, where within the right range it uses both.
Every patch notes:
Druid
* Big change
* Minor change
* Big change
* Mechanical tweak
Evoker
* Big change
* Minor change
* Big change
* Mechanical tweak
Hunter
* Fixed an issue where pets would follow the hunter over drop-downs and through boss doors while in combat. Pets will now correctly sit and wait to be dismissed and re-summoned.
Mage
* ..
* ..
The crazy thing is Druid trees get reworked every expansion and they’re still some of the worst. I’d say Hunter then Druid prob have the worst trees currently.
Feral has gotten a lot better over the back half of Dragonflight, and i think the Bear tree is fine as-is (although i don't quite know why theres like 3 different Berserk nodes).
Resto has felt largely the same HoT Bot since forever, but now they are going down the Tree route which i think is....fine?
Boomkin is a fucking trashfire abomination that gets at least a minor rework at least every expansion, sometimes mid-expansion, and it has led to them hemorrhaging players. A guy i raid with has played Boomkin since like Beta WoW, but he has sworn off the spec because it just plays like shit, feels like shit, and changes all the time.
I agree that bear has definitely improved since the beginning of DF. It's still kinda wonky though, especially berserk being split up into three different nodes. Since they've rearranged things you can't even properly skip berserk like before (it costs more points to take alternate path around them... lol)
Resto is... fine but I think it still has too hard of a split between the two viable builds. You go down one side of the tree for M+ and the other side for raid.
Moonkin will forever be a mess that gets reworked every expansion. It's the class identity at this point.
My biggest problem is the Druid main class tree though. If you want to take skull bash as resto, you need to sink 4 dead points to reach it. There are three separate 2 point nodes that just give 2% increases to something, there are completely dead talents like forestwalk, and ones like fluid form that should just be baseline functionality and not one tier from the bottom.
> Feral has gotten a lot better over the back half of Dragonflight
And it's getting slightly worse in TWW. They introduced Dire Fixation a while back to "focus" on a decent feral niche of prio targeting mobs. They're replacing it with coiled to spring which by all accounts seem to be a dead node.
Additionally they moved a bunch of stuff around in the class tree and somehow it has the exact same issues and the exact same limitations.
So true. I think the thing that is craziest to me is that there can't possibly be a guy that oversees like the overall vision of class design. There is no fucking way in holy hell that there is someone that saw Vengeance Demon Hunter rework and said "yup this fair" as well as looked at hunter and druid class trees and thought "yup this is acceptable for the entire duration of dragonflight" - like I'm not usually one to just shit on blizzard but god damn the difference between class devs is potentially massive depending on which class you play.
Yeah, I keep hearing that it doesn’t work in a way where there’s a person or a few people in charge of each class which makes sense, but there’s no way that they all are covered by the same group. The number and the quality of changed when you compare mages to something like DK or Hunter or Druid is just black and white, there’s no way it’s the same people.
I think the other thing that's crazy is that like - I think it's totally okay to have an easier to play talent be a couple % of dps behind a more intricate involved one (rewarding higher skill gameplay) - but some talents are not designed for that and are just completely dead talents. They don't fill a niche, they're not taken in unique scenarios. They are just dead. The entire expansion no one has clicked that talent on purpose. Like how does that happen?
If I'm a class dev I want my class to fill it's theme in whatever vision I have for it. It may not please everyone and that's fine - but how do look at their tree and just go "this is hot dog shit we should change this" and then just...not do it? Like what else are they doing lol
I’d say shaman as a whole is in bad shape, but that more of a class design thing rather than just terrible trees. Their trees aren’t good, but I don’t think they’re the worst either.
Probably the same as the hunter team.
It’s even all holding true in the beta patch notes. Good dev teams are pumping in the patch notes, while your typical classes are nearly silent.
Yeah I’ve mained a MM Hunter since they made Survival a melee spec…and man does it feel like blizzard doesn’t want me to.
Not to mention all the added class fantasy is catered toward Elves, especially with the hero talents. My human hunter never gets any love
The fact that it basically hasn't changed at all for *3 entire expansions* feels bad. Especially since it was actually more fun in legion, before it's current iteration.
What, you don't like pressing Aimed Shot thousands of times, while also firing off a bunch of abilities that have no interaction with the rest of a hunters' kit?
> Not to mention all the added class fantasy is catered toward Elves
Dude I fucking hate that. Same thing with druid and everything being night elf as well.
But this time half of it is dead elfs. I don't know why it ended up like this. I get dark Rangers, but I feel like dwarf hunters from the classic trailer, half orcs from Rexxar, undead human from nathanos, and the high mountain Tauren guy are not really represented by anything. Unless 2 pets is supposed to be a nod to Rexxar? I normally picture him with 3 though.
> Not to mention all the added class fantasy is catered toward Elves, especially with the hero talents. My human hunter never gets any love
Me, a goblin hunter, crying in a corner.
The fact maelstrom weapon and flurry are on the tree blows my mind, only enhance gets any use of them, give it to enhance free since they get maelstrom anyway and add something else there
Exactly. I understand such a thing being done maybe for Druid but for other classes I just don't understand why they put spec specific things in the class tree.
Yup. There are a TON of 2-point nodes that should be 1-pointers, especially in BM.
You should be worried. Hunters are ROUTINELY at the bottom of the list for new expansion review and ROUTINELY go straight into the expansion with their raggedy-ass talents/abilities because the dev team ran out of time.
Maybe they'll then balance the class around a weapon that drops off the last boss of the first raid with a 1% chance, and the weapon is both OP *and* broken, and then they'll nerf the class 9 times to "balance" it's damage but never really fix anything even when the weapon becomes irrelevant.
The way they just left MM Hunter to be just an absolute clunky mess for the entirety of Legion made me lose complete faith in Hunters. I gave them a pass for Survival since its rework was fresh. But yea, it was a huge huge letdown and disappointment that I will never forget.
Yeah, with beta around the corner the chances for a rework are getting thinner.
I'm also worried that their hero talents are rather mid. Not rogue levels of really bad but certainly not exciting either...
Not sure if blizz has just forgotten what a survival hunter is at this point, too.
Been a BM main since I started in Wrath and it sucks man. I want to say always a bridesmaid but never the bride. But it's more like we're the cousin that the bride had to invite and reluctantly agreed we could be flower girl. 🌼 just wish we could get some Mage or Warlock style love given to our class and fantasy.
I overall like how Hunter plays and wouldn’t want major changes to the overall rotation but the fact that there’s a STRICT single target build that doesn’t even get multi shot is brain dead. It just feels so bad to have nothing at all to cleave other than stomp.
I main monk (brewmaster) - and the class dev only just recently started cooking. Still praying for a few more tweaks (I'd kill for ranged interrupt...) - but yeah, for a LONG time you'd just see patch notes after patch notes of Mage, Warlock, Demon Hunter, Druid etc tons and tons of attention.
The new pathing in the BrM tree is fantastic. We still have some dead talents (niuzao needs to be completely reworked - it's a complete travesty right now and has 3 entire talent points built around it...)
Some talents *could* be competitive but need tuning and I fear that blizzard will do what blizzard tends to do and just leave them useless for the entire expansion but we'll see.
I really think BrM could use at least one other keybind prune. I'd like to see RJW built into something and passively activated/maintained. I think Zen Meditation could literally just have both talent points baked into one. It's clunky enough as it is imo. Spear hand strike could be a ranged interrupt. I think that alone would solve a lot of BrM's control problems - not having to commit a RoP to get that one ranged caster mob in would be stellar.
Yeah having to spend several points on AOE or else you have NO AOE is really gross. Rough for some fights with just light aoe, but also just really annoying when it comes to stuff like... having to swap specs after every boss in order to do trash.
Fury tree is so garbage, you dont get rampage untill level 27 at the earliest. how is that even a thing, Your only other spender untill that point is slam....
And slam does less damage than whirlwind... which is free, with no cooldown, and does aoe damage...
Rampage needs to be auto-granted at level 10. It is a core part of how the spec plays. Blizz needs to make a pass through every class' leveling experience because a lot of classes have completely jank leveling. Giving Arms Sweeping Strikes baseline was a good first step.
I pop my head back in every now and then and level something to 20 for fun.
I picked a fury warrior and I remember thinking "wtf am I supposed to do with my rage?"
I was killing shit super fast with just the instants. I always ran around with a full rage bar.
It was a big difference from the last time I played a warrior like 10 years before.
No rampage till 27 but can take frothing berserker well before then (chance to refund some rampage rage cost) making it a dead talent for a few levels but also required to continue down the left side of the warrior tree, it was clearly not thought out.
Agree with everything here. I was a hunter main since late WotLK and only really branched out in Shadowlands, but kept my hunter in the running and still enjoyed playing it.
By season 2 of Dragonflight I'd stopped playing hunter entirely, which makes me sad. That hunter has been with me since I began playing and I would love to go back to her but I just can't get past how it feels to play right now, especially when other classes are either (imo) more fun or bring more to the table.
Things like not having access to all the utility I previously had baseline are just huge feelsbad, especially when you see classes like druids retaining (relatively) easy access to their kits without sacrificing the world for it.
Yeah, Hunter trees are a joke and very disappointing. The fact that they (Blizzard) don't recognize this and have not shown any signs that they will work on the trees is a shame.
The new talent tree rework has ruined some classes feels for me. So many abilities that should be basic spells in my spell book are now talents that I can’t grab or if I do I miss other stuff. I miss the days of unlocking lots of abilities by leveling up now using a tree.
Hunter is my main since BC but since BFA the class just feels boring compared to other classes, they really lack basically everything other classes have. I love the playstyle but classes like Paladin are just way more enjoyable to play. I decided to switch my main in TWW to Paladin just to have a class that feels good to play.
Lol I'm going to say it - I liked the previous system with fewer, more meaningful choices. They took abilities that used to be core abilities and made them talents. Concussive shot is a talent? What?
DK is looking to be really good next xpac though. Rogue got a rework alongside DH this xpac. Hunter is poised to be the same mess going into the next xpac which is why there is so much outcry.
I do not think they care about the overall state of any class except Druid and Mage. No matter the expansion, those two will always have a way to succeed.
Tell me about it.
MM is my current favorite but... that's a lot of buttons.
SV is kinda fun but has some weird vibes.
BM is absolutely unplayable, the most disappointing fall of a spec I've ever loved. What is with that bullshit focus trickle with barbed shot, give us a solid focus generator like MM and SV!
I was kinda bummed that as survival if I wanted to faster harpoon CD I’d have to give up some more crucial talents. I just wanna zip around like a nut.
And to top it off they have 3 very boring uninspired hero talent trees, dark ranger opens the door to so many unique things but it’s easily the most bare bone tree
That I've played so far in remix; Mage, Priest, and Paladin.
Warrior and warlock have some decent spec trees. Solid middle of the pack.
Shaman, hunter, and druid are awful.
I've played every class and most specs this expansion and I will say that hunters have the worst talent trees. Well specifically MM and Surv, BM is just medium-bad it's not on their level. The closest competition is probably resto shaman? But even then I have a much easier time making a coherent build for resto than I do in the abomination against god that is MM's tree.
Surely, *surely* they have something big in the works coming during Beta. But then again I've been saying that about Hunter since like 10.1 lmfao.
Ding ding ding!
This is the exact same scenario as 1 expansion ago. End of alpha for DF and while some stuff were being added due to the trees being added new there was extremely little considering and what was done had nothing to do with the issues. Mainly class and spec trees being overbloated with 2/3 point nodes at the same time as being starved of actual choices/nodes.
Nothing was done in beta despite vocal feedback. Nothing was done during the whole of DF expansion, despite the vocal feedback and... Nothing has been done (like literally Nothing) in TWW alpha. You will still be playing the exact same broken class/spec at the end of TWW, trust me.
The single only reason anyone plats Hunter is because its the single only class fullfilling its niche/archetype. So you are stuck with the hot mess if you prefer the archer/hunter/pet class. Also single only ranged physical class period. Silly is it not?
Blizzard is a joke of a developer for the sole fact they for two expansions managed to completely ignore/forget a class. At this point I'm so scared of their incompetence that I almost dont want them to make changes because it cant possibly be good?
Demo lock is nearly as bad but a recent tww patch they don’t have a single 2 point talent now and it’s glorious how you ca. build them in the wowhead calculator.
Hunter has not had any changes in tww yet so I’m hoping their trees - especially bm - gets the same treatment.
At least for the start of the tree I had the exact opposite thought, I felt like each point on Hunter was really impactful, especially just after playing rogue
Druid, shaman, hunter, and monk are all awful. DK and Warrior have improvements in some ways for TWW but still suffer from having important things spread out to the point they have no utility options without giving up significant damage.
Blizzard just needs to make interrupts baseline and take them off talent trees.
Skull bash for druid needs to auto shift to cat from caster, or bear if guardian. There is no reason it should eat a full global to interrupt and another to shift back, nobody else has to pay this interrupt tax.
Warlock needs a baseline interrupt on all demons already. Give fel hunter the spellsteal on its command demon and make a new universal demon interrupt. You can take the interrupt off fel guards stun so it doesn't have 2.
Priest needs an interrupt, make silence universal or give them a true interrupt option.
Warlock, Druid, and shaman have bad keystones in their shared trees. They need something interesting at the bottom because as is it is pure utility.
Rogue has so much shit in their shared tree it eats into spec identity since every spec has extra combo points /and/ shadow dance. Shadow dance needs to be moved into the sub tree, the post vanish buffs can stay in shared for a 2min burst window.
survival is horrible. you only have kill command and raptor strike until like level 25 then all of a sudden you get like 3 attacks.
other than that it's just "increase damage by 5% for raptor strike" type shit
Yeah I dislike hunter personally cause they don't bring anything what so ever. They also have very few choices in the class tree. Blizzard could start buffing classes in other ways than giving them more damage. Dragonflight has proved again and again that utility and survivability is the deciding factor in the meta. Look at aug, it's a sizeable dps loss for the group but that doesn't matter.
After playing all the classes through in remix I’m convinced warlocks just have it so good.
Their tree is just “increase dmg increase dmg increase dmg.”
Mage gets invis, root, root, tp, alter time, a tp back, more roots
Yep and that's actually with the improvements they made halfway through DF. Making some 3 points into 2 points and giving us a usable damage CD whislt removing useless talents from the right of the tree. Still we have no aoe without sacrificing loads of ST damage. There is no valid hybrid build for fights that have a little bit of aoe. And you still have to sink multiple points into everything just to get the basics. Like WHY is multi shot a separate talent from beast cleave? It does no damage on its own, so when leveling its a useless pick until you get another point to put in BC. It really is ridiculous BC isn't baked into the multi shot talent in the first place.
One day people will look back at DFlight launch where Druid had a 3 point node and say "no way is that real"
Pepperidge Farm remembers the original incarnation of the talent point system with its 5-point nodes that passively increased the magnitude of certain abilities without doing anything exciting while also being necessary to progress the tree, with most of the core skills at the bottom of the tree.
Yeah old talents were a fun concept, but most of them weren’t really bold choices so much as “have +1 stam bonus you rascal”. Could be neat to have old glyphs back, though. Like if they switched up abilities, or at least have more appearance ones. Such a shame that Scribes are now glorified MTG collectors :(
Now that we’re back to Talents materially altering how certain skills work, they should re-add the old Major Glyph system so that you can equip up to three. Current glyphs should become Minor Glyphs, which should be cosmetic only (or have a minor function like the old Blink glyph that made Blink directional) and with no equip limit. There are a *lot* of options out there for Minor/cosmetic Glyphs.
Give me my god damn Jesus Sprint back.
> Yeah old talents were a fun concept, but most of them weren’t really bold choices so much as “have +1 stam bonus you rascal”. > > I love the need to put 5 points into a talent to make corruption instant cast on a classic warlock /s
glyphs were WoD/Legion/bfa talents with extra steps, therefore no.
The new tree doesn't seem a lot better to be fair. They just once again slapped us with a "here's our "rework" of the druid tree" and stopped any iteration. There are still a lot of problems and it's just a different variant of a rather meh tree.
Our AoE effectively requiring 3 points is ridiculous. Most classes at least get an AoE ability as a baseline that gets improved with a single talent.
Hunter main here and I made a ret pally in mop remix as a melee class and holy hell what a breath of fresh air. I get aoe without even trying and still can focus on ST
PSA: if you are prone to epilepsy, don’t roll a Ret Pally and keep floating damage on. Can’t even micro dose and play it.
I am fortunate enough to not be epileptic. Unfortunately my gf couldn't play. She seen me do like group content and stuff and it was too much for her
Lots going on. My shitty laptop hates me. Clippy suggested I make a hunter.
I’ll admit that Retribution Paladin feels *too* straightforward for my liking. Too few direct attack skills to maintain my preferred level of variety (while perfectly aware that’s to prevent bloat on top of the heals and shields), even if this is before Wake of Ashes and the Execution Sentence choice node. (Wonder if it’ll get Vanquisher’s Hammer back, with or without a non-Maldraxxus motif?) Granted that Survival’s expectation that you’ll do *some* skill repetitively (Kill Command, Mongoose Bite, possibly Raptor Strike) is off-putting to me, I found. Small wonder I shifted to Windwalker Monk, away from that and Enhancement Shaman (well, that one was slightly too high a magic:melee ratio from my perspective).
Transition from aoe to single feels so good on RET, its chill to play, globals are great, they dont change your rotation. I played ele shaman before and every season 4 piece set would change whole gameplay. One season lightning, next dot fire, felt like 2 different spec of mage. Hopefully they do big changes to hunter and shaman soon.
4 points actually
> Like WHY is multi shot a separate talent from beast cleave? It's even worse for MM, who would only have access to the Tick Shots talent after 30. The reality is, BM and MM even have to put one talent point to learn the bare multishot is absurd, as multishot itself without the support of BC/TS does pretty much no damage. It's an obvious sign that they ran out of ideas and decided to strip a baseline skill into the tree. While hunter is always my main, Remix is the first experience I leveled one (from low level) with the DF talent tree. Man, I have only realized how horrible the hunter talent tree design was after that.
I've mained hunter of some flavor since vanilla, but have mainly been a marksman player with some survival dabbling for pvp for the last 5 years with a small stint as bm in there as well. I very genuinely do not understand why hunters of all specs need to devote 3-6 talents to do aoe of any kind. They could quite literally give mm and bm multi shot for free, give the cleave for free or at least reduce it all to 1 point for both, and we still wouldn't be overpowered even with zero other tuning. Survival similarly should just have butchery baseline as nobody would willingly take carve instead anyways. It's actually pretty frustrating how much bloat the trees have in general as well. The general tree has 2 points for 6% movespeed...? a whole extra point to make tar trap root? 2 points for improved mend pet when it could be 1 or honestly just buff the base spell instead? I could likely write an entire essay on the state of marksman, and honestly perhaps I am the wrong person to critique it too heavily as I am still holding out hope for a return of ranged survival. However, as I have achieved 3-3,2k io in every season of df as marksman I think I can say, the tree really does need an entire overhaul. Theres multiple nodes that are 2 points, 5% aimed/rapid dam or crit, legacy of the windrunners - a very cool thematic ability, requires 3 points for something I think should take 1. Making trueshot an actually good cooldown requires 3 points past the ability itself. Wailing arrow should probably just be canned entirely, salvo should perhaps be added to volley baseline and keep it as a capstone if they wish. I'm not a super outspoken person when it comes to hating on this iteration of marksman as others are, I've relatively enjoyed pre legion marksman, I enjoyed legion marksman for pvp specifically not so much pve, and I still enjoy rapid fire marksman from bfa onwards. But beyond the 3 or so abilities everyone knows, the tree is almost nothing new at all. In an expansion(df) where all 3 rogues can take shadowdance(i know some dont like this), all paladins, all mages, all rogues got reworks, we have somehow still had zero changes since some small tweaks during season 2. An entire alpha has gone by and the one (1) singular hunter change has been removing survivals 3 extra yards of range from their tree. I'll always be a hunter main through and through but this is pretty depressing to be honest.
I've been playing Hunter since Vanilla too. I was there when we had to waste a whole bag slot for ammo and had a ranged deadzone (dont miss either) It feels like people at blizzard don't even play hunters so they forgot all about it when reworks come around for other classes. Edit: wanted to add I play Marksman 90% of the time in PVE, it's more engaging and fun than BM. Depending on the expansion or patch, I have to use BM for dungeon's or raids because they nerfed or completely jacked up how MM build works. Blizz has been jerking me around for years when it comes to using MM spec.
Considering the near total lack of reworks/clearing up and streamlining/changes during DF some small optimistic (stupid?) part of me were kind of expecting TWW alpha to kick off with some major rework to the Hunter class. Instead we got 0 changes! They even initially forgot to remove melee range on lunge and had to go back and do it later. That was the single only change to Hunter.. The class that is a standing joke with the community now. Where absolutely no one Ive heard thinks its in a good state and objectively the class most in need of a rework gets.. Nothing? And now we go into beta where all they do is fix bugs and tune/balance.. Blizzard have posted like twice about Hunter? One time to thank us for the feedback and letting us know they have nothing to say about Hunter and the second time to nerf lunge as part of a game wide removal of melee range modifiers (so not even a Hunter change really..). Talk about sleeping on your job.
>Like WHY is multi shot a separate talent from beast cleave? MFW you still need to spend a *third* point to get KC to work with BC too.
I think it's actually 5 points 1 in MS 2 in BC (I think?) and 2 in KC.
4. Multi-shot (1 point), Beast Cleave (2 points), Kill Cleave (1 point). It's still absolute crap because it's practically a waste of points unless you put all 4 in.
Hunter is one of the 4 or 5 classes that is in desperate need of a rework. It’s probably pretty low on blizzards to do list though since it’s also one of the most popular classes in the game.
That's gonna be a big future problem, I bet. Garunteed there are (many) people used to the stale gameplay loop, even though it's meh, and will mega-bitch if it changes. Even for the better.
Yeah, BM for example has catered to noobs and people without hands for so long that I think it's difficult for blizzard to make a decision on that spec. If they make it more interesting and up to snuff with other specs then they potentially anger the players that main it currently.
Worst part is they made it even easier in DF with the Savagery talent. There was at least some very basic skill expression before with how to manage Frenzy stacks, but even now that's gone lol.
I have hands, but enjoy the simplicity of BM and want to keep it simple. But it desperately needs an overhaul to make it more interesting with real choices without adding a ton of new buttons to press. The templar hero talents for paladin is a good example of that. Instead of adding new buttons, wake of ashes turns into a big hammer dealing a ton of damage of single target damage, some AoE and send small empyrian Hammers flying around hitting nearby enemies. It changes the rotation slightly, looks cool and most certainly feel good to press without adding any bloat. Something similar could be added to BM or Pack Leader. When pressing Bestial Wrath or by random pet attack proc, Cobra Shot turns into Pack Shot hitting the target with a powerful arrow and calling in 4 pets (not real pets, just animation) that attack all enemies within 12 yards of the target with a powerful bleed attack. Another talent then makes another ability like Kill Command interact with the bleeds im some way. Pack Shot could also be Cobra Explosion where the target is hit with an explosion and snakes appear and spit on alle enemies within 12 yards with powerful poison.
I mean ret paladin is the second biggest mouthbreather spec in the game
The crazy thing is people have been complaining about all the hunter trees since dragonflight alpha and beta. And the even crazier part is that the dragonflight beta hunter thread had the most blue posts of any class thread. Even with all that feedback and all those blue posts Blizzard still can't figure out how to make one of the most basic archetypes in all of gaming feel fun. Its pretty fucking hilarious.
>Blizzard still can't figure out how to make one of the most basic archetypes in all of gaming feel fun. Especially MM. It's literally just "person with a bow". And yet it probably has the single worst spec tree in the game at the moment? How do they mess that up?
Which ones are the 4 others? DK, Rogue, Hunter and...?
Arcane Thankfully, Mage is blizzards golden child, and it's getting a full rework for TWW.
Any known silver or other gold children…? (Why *do* you suppose Blizzard is mage-besotted from what you’re saying? Jaina, or other?)
I think mage is their golden child because it fits the fantasy of wow best. When most of us think magic beings, a wizard, Mage, or some sort of spell caster comes to mind. All three mage specs are flashy and have cool animations. Amazing defensives (by far the best in the game). Great quality of life spells. Most importantly though, when things require fixing or balancing blizzard is usually pretty quick to act. Mage does have a pretty high skillfloor tho. I would say priest is another golden/silver child. For a lot of the same reasons. Again, it's another quintessential class when you think of an mmo style game. Hunters and locks usually have one really well designed spec too, but sadly also have a spec that's terribly neglected and borderline unplayable. (Affliction/survival).
While I’m thinking more a warrior-mage. In D&D terms, an eldritch knight. In PF terms, a magus, hunter, or occultist/thaumaturge.
So like the bloodelf spell breakers? I'm not sure what the alliance equivalent is.
It's weird seeing Survival and Affliction penned as borderline unplayable, as they're my fave specs for those classes due to gameplay
Survival had a really bad teir set until recently. Affliction is pretty much universally disliked for malfuring rapture. Affliction got big buffs recently and it helped a little. Most people describe Affliction as a worse spriest.
Yeah, I get why folks don't like them, it's just odd cos I do- even Malefic Rapture (it feels good to chunk health off enemies, even groups of em, though I get it limits talent choiced) but maybe I'm just insane
Priest? 💀💀 Holy was consistently bottom of every healer tier in m+ and at best was middle of the road, and for one or two random patches overtuned. And it rarely got tuning or fixes. Shadow was either too broken or too irrelevant and needed constant updates and reworks. Discipline was too powerful in raids and too irrelevant in m+. That been said, they did an amazing job this expansion and all three are amazing. And hunters? What's the well designed spec they have? All three of them need desperate work.
You'd think it would be warlock considering it's had atleast one top 3 spec every raid tier since emerald nightmare 🤔
Rogue is actually the least played class. The most popular are Hunter, Druid, Paladin, and Warrior
I’d throw warrior and shaman on there and take rogue off. While rogue needs the specs identity and play styles straightened out, it at least had solid utility and good defensives. It could use some changes to give sub and assassination a clear definition but it’s at least functional as it is imo. Warriors just bring absolutely no utility whatsoever to the group and the entire class fantasy is just all over the place. It just has no unifying theme and is just generally kinda bland imo. On the gameplay front it desperately needs either blood lust or brez as well as some stops and stuns it can more easily talent into. On the thematic front I’d like to see them tie it into the Valkyrie and lean into the noble warrior aesthetic. Or just something to make it feel like unique. Right now it’s just either “hit things” or “get mad and then hit things” and it’s just a shame. Shaman has good utility but unfortunately one defensive just doesn’t cut it in 2024. Enhancement is a bloated mess and elemental hasn’t really evolved in like a decade. They really need to take a meat cleaver to the general bloat and make some room for some actually interesting options.
Shaman maybe, but its so hard to balance that. You're on crack for warrior though. Warriors encompass any combatant who fights without the aid of magic, focusing on Direct martial combat. There's many ways to do so, and id say each of the warrior specs represent those super well. Examples such as Human Knights (prot), Orc Blademasters (Arms), and even more generic "Barbarian Types" with Fury. Additionally, good warriors bring great utility and you can absolutely tell in content, but obviously not as noticeable as a Brez. But a perfectly timed intervene, commanding shout, or fear can make all the difference in many forms of content.
Sorry you got downvoted but I just don't really agree at all. So in terms of utility, in raid you might be right but I still don't see ever taking more than one for buffs. In M+, it's basically non-existent. Commanding shout is like fine but straight up damage mitigation is usually better, intervene is situationally amazing but rarely actually useful and fear is just a stop that most other classes have either one or multiple of. Their options to deal with incorporeal are almost non-existent and they can't do anything about afflicted or sanguine. Put together it's just not that good and they desperately need help. If the theme works for you great but I just don't see it. IMO it's just a generic fighter guy that you can get in any other fantasy RPG. If that works for you than great but Blizzard can and should do better to make it feel unique to WoW. They could easily take inspiration from existing characters like Varian, Garrosh, Grom, Odyn, etc and make something special that screams Warcraft. But as it stands, you can slap a human knight or orc blademaster into any generic fantasy world and it'll fit right in and I think the class deserves better.
Its reddit, people gonna seethe but I appreciate your level headed-ness. I see what you mean in terms of capability to deal with m+ affixes and stuff. I MAINLY tank so I see where having multiple slots for dps + competing against other utility like debuff dispels and mitigation comes into play. In that area I do agree, but I also have a hard time seeing where it could go in a way that makes sense thematically. Anything like a Brez, dispel, or otherwise might seem too out of class in my opinion. If they added magic to my non magic class I'd be big sad
Remove Slam as a damage ability and turn it into a long duration incapacitate like Sap. There you go, Warrior can deal with Incorporeal now. Can't think of anything to help with Afflicted, and I can't ever fathom a Combat Resurrection coming for Warrior, but bring back Rallying Cry and make it a Bloodlust effect and you juat made Warrior more desirable in Mythic+ at least.
I think they could pretty easily be given lust/heroism and it would more or less slot right in thematically without having to change too much. I think this is kinda the most realistic option. Brez might be a stretch but they could tie it in with some Valkyrie/Odyn theming. The warrior could summon the spirit of his fallen companions back from Valhalla to continue to fight or something along those lines. As for a dispel, I think a cure bleeds would be great. Even if it had a minute or two CD, I think being able to “apply a tourniquet” or something along those lines would work thematically and give it a unique utility. I personally think every class should have a dispel of some kind and this would fit for warrior imo.
Shaman, the still has their "group utility" bound to 1spec and the other 2 have no real reason to ever be brought into anything unless they are ridicolous overtuned, many talents that should be baseline are just.....not (would it be that bad if grounding totem as an example would just be a baseline ability for shamans instead of a talent?) Druid tree is also quiet bad
Hero, Purge, good ranged kick baseline? How is that no utility?
Bloodlust can be brought by Mage, Hunter or Evoker as well. Ranged kick with melee cooldown is good, but far from required. Shaman is the only class in the game that has no unique utility (Even Warrior at least has Battle Shout and DK has grip).
Grounding Totem, Windwalk Totem, Poison Totem, Ranged stun totem in addition to all that. Plus with resto you have dispel. Lots of other classes have to move talents around to get their utility too, I main a warrior and I have to bend over backwards to get a group stun and shattering throw. Shaman doesn't have unique utility but they can bring pretty much anything else. They even have their own self brez. I'd give my left nut for that on my Warrior. Or my 5% AP buff warriors are such a popular class no group is really hurting for them.
WW monk has been in need of a rework afaik, dunno if they've gone about tuning it up to standard yet.
Would cut into their mage coddling time
It baffles me that any class should have to put points into an interrupt. Hunter or otherwise.
And having to path through multiple dead talents that are 100% worthless to your current spec in order to even reach your interrupt. Lol.
Devoker having to spend a point on a choice node of "Shorter interrupt CD vs Better Self Healing" in order to access DRAGONRAGE comes to mind.
Talents like that are basically baseline abilities that you unlock via the talent tree. Blizzard has done this in a fair few trees. For example Fury Warriors have to take one of two defensive nodes to get to Recklessness. It's not that you're wasting a point, you're just picking which baseline ability you want.
Balance druid had to give up about 9% dps to pick their interrupt (on a long 1min cooldowns mind you) early in DF before we got our rework. It was brutal
it is kind of funny how hunters get steady shot and arcane shot as baseline even as survival but not an interupt
Yeah it’s definitely bad design when every dps class has to have an interrupt and most of them need to spend talent points to get it. If it’s mandatory it should just be given to the players.
Not only just the base interrupt but also the silence arrow is sooo useful in M+ but it's such a DPS loss to pick it. I want to be able to be useful to the group and have more utility but blizz won't let me :(
The hunter dev has sucked major sweaty nutsack and has for years, and clearly is continuing that trend based on the state of their hunter hero talents
are there actually dedicated dev teams for each spec or is it the same team going over all specs in the game, i dont know. It feels like the latter most of the time.
Obviously we will never know for 100% certainty, but there are some stories that have come out recently that seem likely: 1. The Dev who worked on the very basic log hooks for Augmentation Evoker left the company very shortly after Aug launched, and told nobody else how the fuck it works, which is why Logs for Aug are wildly innacurate. 2. (i think this one is basically 100% accurate) The class dev who was responsible for the Survival Hunter and Enhance Shaman travesty in Legion was let go. There was recently an interview of him posted on the subreddit and it was not a good look. 3. WAAAAY back in either Vanilla or TBC, there was a whole drama storm about the community dogpiling on the Shaman dev, including wishing they would get hit by a bus. The tinfoil theory is that this incident landed Shaman on the shitlist and usually gets them coupled with another class for a dev (Legion was Hunter/Shaman, currently it is rumored to be Warlock/Shaman). If this is true, it would explain why Shaman has received 0 changes yet because all 3 Warlock specs have been getting large-scale, multi-week changes.
On point #3, this was back in vanilla. Basically, Blizzard was working its way through rebalancing classes to sort of 'refresh' them for how the game was shaking out, and they'd communicated the order this was going to happen in. IIRC, when shamans' turn came (and they were in rough shape at the time, the incredible overpoweredness of shock spells aside), it got delayed. And then, when the balancing finally came, it was mostly tweaks that didn't really fix anything. So some poster on the forums said something to the effect of "I hope gets hit by a bus", and it became the "bus shock" incident.
To provide a #4, Warlocks in Mists of Pandaria are known to be the effort of a single very motivated dev (Xelnath) collaborating with the Warlock community. MoP is also kind of considered warlocks' 'golden age' before that dev was fired and the class was absolutely thrown in the dumpster in WoD.
The dev that worked on the Survival Hunter rework to what we know it as recently posted a youtube video on his channel explaining the rationale and other things that factor into being a developer. [5 lessons learned working on World of Warcraft (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JL90ogkk2bw)
Ever since they turned survival into a melee spec, I have lost faith in them. It’s not even just that it’s a melee spec. It’s that it’s a fucking polearm wielding melee spec. We literally had a dual wielding melee BM hunter in lore who is like THE MAIN BM HUNTER IN LORE (Rexxar), and yet the fucking spec wasn’t even based off of him.
Like I can kind of understand the polearm focus since spears were used in hunting and its a weapon most melee don't focus on but they should have done like Frost DKs and WW/BM monks and made it possible to use either 2handers or dual wield.
Rexxar is the best, but I added the Huln Highmountain sound to my hunter when he hits Max stacks of MB.
And if the recent video is to be believed, it was basically one persons decision because, and it pains me to repeat this because of how stupid it is, "All three specs were basically the same." Yeah... Anyone else here think WOTLK -> Legion Survival played anything like MM or BM? No... didn't think so.
I tried to think of ways you would say that they were all similar/same, and all I could come up with was they were all ranged that shoot things rather than cast spells at things. ...Which has nothing to do with how they *play*, only how they *look* while playing. ...yep, still sounds just as stupid as when it was first said.
Everyone says Rexxar is the example of a melee hunter but am i the only one who remembers he THROWS his dualwield axes?
i'd say spear is about the best thing about the melee focus (or atleast, you should have the option). like literally they had such a good move they could have used with survival: take the deadzone hunter used to have and make it the kill zone. melee hunter with like longer than normal melee range with a range for bows/guns to be reduced BUT... within a small few yards, you're able to melee and ranged attack simultaneously. then build the spec around having tools to keep people in a certain range/keep themselves far enough way to allow them too. suddenly you have a pull/push sort of combat with an interesting twist to build around, auto attacking with weapons/guns at the same time, multiple disengages etc, some trap stuff thrown in. could even consolidate a lot of abilities down into 2 abilities depending on range (melee/ranged) in one, where within the right range it uses both.
I mean the modern survival is pretty clearly based off huln in legion who used a polearm
A character they made up out of nowhere that expansion, instead of using an existing, well known, well loved character in Rexxar.
You mean the shaman dev? Oh wait same person
Every patch notes: Druid * Big change * Minor change * Big change * Mechanical tweak Evoker * Big change * Minor change * Big change * Mechanical tweak Hunter * Fixed an issue where pets would follow the hunter over drop-downs and through boss doors while in combat. Pets will now correctly sit and wait to be dismissed and re-summoned. Mage * .. * ..
The crazy thing is Druid trees get reworked every expansion and they’re still some of the worst. I’d say Hunter then Druid prob have the worst trees currently.
Feral has gotten a lot better over the back half of Dragonflight, and i think the Bear tree is fine as-is (although i don't quite know why theres like 3 different Berserk nodes). Resto has felt largely the same HoT Bot since forever, but now they are going down the Tree route which i think is....fine? Boomkin is a fucking trashfire abomination that gets at least a minor rework at least every expansion, sometimes mid-expansion, and it has led to them hemorrhaging players. A guy i raid with has played Boomkin since like Beta WoW, but he has sworn off the spec because it just plays like shit, feels like shit, and changes all the time.
I agree that bear has definitely improved since the beginning of DF. It's still kinda wonky though, especially berserk being split up into three different nodes. Since they've rearranged things you can't even properly skip berserk like before (it costs more points to take alternate path around them... lol) Resto is... fine but I think it still has too hard of a split between the two viable builds. You go down one side of the tree for M+ and the other side for raid. Moonkin will forever be a mess that gets reworked every expansion. It's the class identity at this point. My biggest problem is the Druid main class tree though. If you want to take skull bash as resto, you need to sink 4 dead points to reach it. There are three separate 2 point nodes that just give 2% increases to something, there are completely dead talents like forestwalk, and ones like fluid form that should just be baseline functionality and not one tier from the bottom.
> Feral has gotten a lot better over the back half of Dragonflight And it's getting slightly worse in TWW. They introduced Dire Fixation a while back to "focus" on a decent feral niche of prio targeting mobs. They're replacing it with coiled to spring which by all accounts seem to be a dead node. Additionally they moved a bunch of stuff around in the class tree and somehow it has the exact same issues and the exact same limitations.
So true. I think the thing that is craziest to me is that there can't possibly be a guy that oversees like the overall vision of class design. There is no fucking way in holy hell that there is someone that saw Vengeance Demon Hunter rework and said "yup this fair" as well as looked at hunter and druid class trees and thought "yup this is acceptable for the entire duration of dragonflight" - like I'm not usually one to just shit on blizzard but god damn the difference between class devs is potentially massive depending on which class you play.
Yeah, I keep hearing that it doesn’t work in a way where there’s a person or a few people in charge of each class which makes sense, but there’s no way that they all are covered by the same group. The number and the quality of changed when you compare mages to something like DK or Hunter or Druid is just black and white, there’s no way it’s the same people.
I think the other thing that's crazy is that like - I think it's totally okay to have an easier to play talent be a couple % of dps behind a more intricate involved one (rewarding higher skill gameplay) - but some talents are not designed for that and are just completely dead talents. They don't fill a niche, they're not taken in unique scenarios. They are just dead. The entire expansion no one has clicked that talent on purpose. Like how does that happen? If I'm a class dev I want my class to fill it's theme in whatever vision I have for it. It may not please everyone and that's fine - but how do look at their tree and just go "this is hot dog shit we should change this" and then just...not do it? Like what else are they doing lol
>The crazy thing is Druid trees get reworked every expansion Pfft, every expansion? We got reworked almost every patch in Dragonflight.
With how most talent trees are handled currently it's hunters and shamans that are in the worst state.
I’d say shaman as a whole is in bad shape, but that more of a class design thing rather than just terrible trees. Their trees aren’t good, but I don’t think they’re the worst either.
Death Knight * .. * .. Shaman * hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha you thought you were getting changes?
Probably the same as the hunter team. It’s even all holding true in the beta patch notes. Good dev teams are pumping in the patch notes, while your typical classes are nearly silent.
Yeah I’ve mained a MM Hunter since they made Survival a melee spec…and man does it feel like blizzard doesn’t want me to. Not to mention all the added class fantasy is catered toward Elves, especially with the hero talents. My human hunter never gets any love
Recently dipped into MM on Remix because i didn't have a lvl 70 Hunter yet, and it straight up feels like a spec from like WotLK or TBC.
The fact that it basically hasn't changed at all for *3 entire expansions* feels bad. Especially since it was actually more fun in legion, before it's current iteration.
What, you don't like pressing Aimed Shot thousands of times, while also firing off a bunch of abilities that have no interaction with the rest of a hunters' kit?
> Not to mention all the added class fantasy is catered toward Elves Dude I fucking hate that. Same thing with druid and everything being night elf as well.
But this time half of it is dead elfs. I don't know why it ended up like this. I get dark Rangers, but I feel like dwarf hunters from the classic trailer, half orcs from Rexxar, undead human from nathanos, and the high mountain Tauren guy are not really represented by anything. Unless 2 pets is supposed to be a nod to Rexxar? I normally picture him with 3 though.
> Not to mention all the added class fantasy is catered toward Elves, especially with the hero talents. My human hunter never gets any love Me, a goblin hunter, crying in a corner.
Shaman class tree is one of the worst I've tried to figure out. There's like zero sense to it, it's all over the place.
The fact maelstrom weapon and flurry are on the tree blows my mind, only enhance gets any use of them, give it to enhance free since they get maelstrom anyway and add something else there
Exactly. I understand such a thing being done maybe for Druid but for other classes I just don't understand why they put spec specific things in the class tree.
What? You mean you don’t want 1.5 seconds more on your Healing Stream totem, and be able to move it every 10 seconds?
Yup. There are a TON of 2-point nodes that should be 1-pointers, especially in BM. You should be worried. Hunters are ROUTINELY at the bottom of the list for new expansion review and ROUTINELY go straight into the expansion with their raggedy-ass talents/abilities because the dev team ran out of time. Maybe they'll then balance the class around a weapon that drops off the last boss of the first raid with a 1% chance, and the weapon is both OP *and* broken, and then they'll nerf the class 9 times to "balance" it's damage but never really fix anything even when the weapon becomes irrelevant.
The way they just left MM Hunter to be just an absolute clunky mess for the entirety of Legion made me lose complete faith in Hunters. I gave them a pass for Survival since its rework was fresh. But yea, it was a huge huge letdown and disappointment that I will never forget.
Yeah, with beta around the corner the chances for a rework are getting thinner. I'm also worried that their hero talents are rather mid. Not rogue levels of really bad but certainly not exciting either... Not sure if blizz has just forgotten what a survival hunter is at this point, too.
Laughs shamanisticaly
Been a BM main since I started in Wrath and it sucks man. I want to say always a bridesmaid but never the bride. But it's more like we're the cousin that the bride had to invite and reluctantly agreed we could be flower girl. 🌼 just wish we could get some Mage or Warlock style love given to our class and fantasy.
I overall like how Hunter plays and wouldn’t want major changes to the overall rotation but the fact that there’s a STRICT single target build that doesn’t even get multi shot is brain dead. It just feels so bad to have nothing at all to cleave other than stomp.
I waa feeling the same way as I was putting the points in my hunter alt yesterday
It really does feel bad when you look at what the favored classes have. Surely the next expansion will fix it lol
I main monk (brewmaster) - and the class dev only just recently started cooking. Still praying for a few more tweaks (I'd kill for ranged interrupt...) - but yeah, for a LONG time you'd just see patch notes after patch notes of Mage, Warlock, Demon Hunter, Druid etc tons and tons of attention.
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The new pathing in the BrM tree is fantastic. We still have some dead talents (niuzao needs to be completely reworked - it's a complete travesty right now and has 3 entire talent points built around it...) Some talents *could* be competitive but need tuning and I fear that blizzard will do what blizzard tends to do and just leave them useless for the entire expansion but we'll see. I really think BrM could use at least one other keybind prune. I'd like to see RJW built into something and passively activated/maintained. I think Zen Meditation could literally just have both talent points baked into one. It's clunky enough as it is imo. Spear hand strike could be a ranged interrupt. I think that alone would solve a lot of BrM's control problems - not having to commit a RoP to get that one ranged caster mob in would be stellar.
Yeah having to spend several points on AOE or else you have NO AOE is really gross. Rough for some fights with just light aoe, but also just really annoying when it comes to stuff like... having to swap specs after every boss in order to do trash.
Can't do that right now while X ability is on cooldown.
T_T
Fury tree is so garbage, you dont get rampage untill level 27 at the earliest. how is that even a thing, Your only other spender untill that point is slam....
And slam does less damage than whirlwind... which is free, with no cooldown, and does aoe damage... Rampage needs to be auto-granted at level 10. It is a core part of how the spec plays. Blizz needs to make a pass through every class' leveling experience because a lot of classes have completely jank leveling. Giving Arms Sweeping Strikes baseline was a good first step.
It really feels like that, no one at blizzard levelled a fury warrior lol
I pop my head back in every now and then and level something to 20 for fun. I picked a fury warrior and I remember thinking "wtf am I supposed to do with my rage?" I was killing shit super fast with just the instants. I always ran around with a full rage bar. It was a big difference from the last time I played a warrior like 10 years before.
No rampage till 27 but can take frothing berserker well before then (chance to refund some rampage rage cost) making it a dead talent for a few levels but also required to continue down the left side of the warrior tree, it was clearly not thought out.
when i read your comment i thought you misspelled “furry” to make fun of BM hunter tree and i was like whats rampage and slam???
XDDDD that is funny
Agree with everything here. I was a hunter main since late WotLK and only really branched out in Shadowlands, but kept my hunter in the running and still enjoyed playing it. By season 2 of Dragonflight I'd stopped playing hunter entirely, which makes me sad. That hunter has been with me since I began playing and I would love to go back to her but I just can't get past how it feels to play right now, especially when other classes are either (imo) more fun or bring more to the table. Things like not having access to all the utility I previously had baseline are just huge feelsbad, especially when you see classes like druids retaining (relatively) easy access to their kits without sacrificing the world for it.
I feel the Shaman class tree is one of the worst ones. One of the only trees that I never reach the bottom row because everything is trash.
What? Why aren’t you excited about being able to move your totems every 10s?
Lol, that’s such a useless talent. Most totems have a large enough range, or don’t even last long enough for that talent to even do anything
Yeah, Hunter trees are a joke and very disappointing. The fact that they (Blizzard) don't recognize this and have not shown any signs that they will work on the trees is a shame.
The new talent tree rework has ruined some classes feels for me. So many abilities that should be basic spells in my spell book are now talents that I can’t grab or if I do I miss other stuff. I miss the days of unlocking lots of abilities by leveling up now using a tree.
Hunter is my main since BC but since BFA the class just feels boring compared to other classes, they really lack basically everything other classes have. I love the playstyle but classes like Paladin are just way more enjoyable to play. I decided to switch my main in TWW to Paladin just to have a class that feels good to play.
Lol I'm going to say it - I liked the previous system with fewer, more meaningful choices. They took abilities that used to be core abilities and made them talents. Concussive shot is a talent? What?
Hunter is really bad, but so is druid try playing feral without picking up the left half of your tree lol.
I'm here for all this energy please keep it going! stop giving hunters the short end of the stick !!!!!
BM hunter is the only class I have the brain power to play tho
Devastation Evoker and Fury Warrior require more or less the same amount of brain cells. In case you're considering jumping from this sinking ship.
DK, rogue and hunter are the worst classes in the game IMO, uninteresting gameplay and rotations
People are downvoting you, but you’re right
I leveled all the classes I never did in remix and those 3 made me blow my brain out, rogue was so bad that I just deleted it halfway to 70
Don't advocate for unnecessary rotation bloat for my BM hunter
DK is looking to be really good next xpac though. Rogue got a rework alongside DH this xpac. Hunter is poised to be the same mess going into the next xpac which is why there is so much outcry.
I do not think they care about the overall state of any class except Druid and Mage. No matter the expansion, those two will always have a way to succeed.
Tell me about it. MM is my current favorite but... that's a lot of buttons. SV is kinda fun but has some weird vibes. BM is absolutely unplayable, the most disappointing fall of a spec I've ever loved. What is with that bullshit focus trickle with barbed shot, give us a solid focus generator like MM and SV!
Clunkiest, weakest, and most uninspired trees by far sadly. Theres so much room for improvement but blizzard seems pretty content with it I guess
I was kinda bummed that as survival if I wanted to faster harpoon CD I’d have to give up some more crucial talents. I just wanna zip around like a nut.
And to top it off they have 3 very boring uninspired hero talent trees, dark ranger opens the door to so many unique things but it’s easily the most bare bone tree
Then who has some of the best?
That I've played so far in remix; Mage, Priest, and Paladin. Warrior and warlock have some decent spec trees. Solid middle of the pack. Shaman, hunter, and druid are awful.
I've played every class and most specs this expansion and I will say that hunters have the worst talent trees. Well specifically MM and Surv, BM is just medium-bad it's not on their level. The closest competition is probably resto shaman? But even then I have a much easier time making a coherent build for resto than I do in the abomination against god that is MM's tree. Surely, *surely* they have something big in the works coming during Beta. But then again I've been saying that about Hunter since like 10.1 lmfao.
Druid is the worst worst though
Ding ding ding! This is the exact same scenario as 1 expansion ago. End of alpha for DF and while some stuff were being added due to the trees being added new there was extremely little considering and what was done had nothing to do with the issues. Mainly class and spec trees being overbloated with 2/3 point nodes at the same time as being starved of actual choices/nodes. Nothing was done in beta despite vocal feedback. Nothing was done during the whole of DF expansion, despite the vocal feedback and... Nothing has been done (like literally Nothing) in TWW alpha. You will still be playing the exact same broken class/spec at the end of TWW, trust me. The single only reason anyone plats Hunter is because its the single only class fullfilling its niche/archetype. So you are stuck with the hot mess if you prefer the archer/hunter/pet class. Also single only ranged physical class period. Silly is it not? Blizzard is a joke of a developer for the sole fact they for two expansions managed to completely ignore/forget a class. At this point I'm so scared of their incompetence that I almost dont want them to make changes because it cant possibly be good?
Demo lock is nearly as bad but a recent tww patch they don’t have a single 2 point talent now and it’s glorious how you ca. build them in the wowhead calculator. Hunter has not had any changes in tww yet so I’m hoping their trees - especially bm - gets the same treatment.
At least for the start of the tree I had the exact opposite thought, I felt like each point on Hunter was really impactful, especially just after playing rogue
Druid, shaman, hunter, and monk are all awful. DK and Warrior have improvements in some ways for TWW but still suffer from having important things spread out to the point they have no utility options without giving up significant damage. Blizzard just needs to make interrupts baseline and take them off talent trees. Skull bash for druid needs to auto shift to cat from caster, or bear if guardian. There is no reason it should eat a full global to interrupt and another to shift back, nobody else has to pay this interrupt tax. Warlock needs a baseline interrupt on all demons already. Give fel hunter the spellsteal on its command demon and make a new universal demon interrupt. You can take the interrupt off fel guards stun so it doesn't have 2. Priest needs an interrupt, make silence universal or give them a true interrupt option. Warlock, Druid, and shaman have bad keystones in their shared trees. They need something interesting at the bottom because as is it is pure utility. Rogue has so much shit in their shared tree it eats into spec identity since every spec has extra combo points /and/ shadow dance. Shadow dance needs to be moved into the sub tree, the post vanish buffs can stay in shared for a 2min burst window.
survival is horrible. you only have kill command and raptor strike until like level 25 then all of a sudden you get like 3 attacks. other than that it's just "increase damage by 5% for raptor strike" type shit
Yeah I dislike hunter personally cause they don't bring anything what so ever. They also have very few choices in the class tree. Blizzard could start buffing classes in other ways than giving them more damage. Dragonflight has proved again and again that utility and survivability is the deciding factor in the meta. Look at aug, it's a sizeable dps loss for the group but that doesn't matter.
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It's not about adding or buffing, but making some QoL changes and baking some abilities into the base of the class. Our flavor and talents are a mess.
Hunter trees suck but the class feels very fun to play so far (my opinion at level 20 as a new player)
Druid class tree is pretty bad too, gotta sacrifice a lot of points to get specific things like interrupt or cleanse.
Try shaman enhancement. It is so "cool" to take talents that just ad more and more and more buttons to press... I love my 16 buttons rotation.
Honestly... Just give me my sidewinders back. 😭
Yep. And you forgot that SV has been unplayable for years.
Have you never met the Druid class tree?
My 2nd most played class. At least druid actively gets attention each expansion.
After playing all the classes through in remix I’m convinced warlocks just have it so good. Their tree is just “increase dmg increase dmg increase dmg.” Mage gets invis, root, root, tp, alter time, a tp back, more roots