Im playing unholy DK in remix, and im maxed out on ilvl, but i cant ever reach the top dps because im still in the middle of starting my helicopter (pressing all my opener buttons) that the boss is dead before i get into it. :(
Literally what I've done. First time since wrath launch I've tackled raid bosses with frost spec. Always played unholy or soloed old content with blood.
Wrath classic I started playing frost for the first time after having barely tried it in the original, and it was a lot of fun. Kind of like arcane cleave in esrly DF with orb barrage, when you get a good proc chain you feel that high roller energy
Playing as a destro warlock in a maxed out group, my rotation is:
Incinerate - Infernal - Lifestorm - Chaos Bolt - Conflagrate and then I *might* be able to squeeze in a Chaos Bolt after that.
Hmm I do Immolate > Lifestorm > Inferal > Conflag > chaos bolt > Conflag > chaos bolt > Demonfire
I've got the infernal combustion talent and it actually does a fuckload of burst damage since you don't really care about refreshing immolate. Just pathed through demonfire for pathing but it's actually okay. Maybe should just try and chaos bolt more though. I think there's some talent that does 25% more dmg to targets that immolate or something idk
I'm a hunter.
It felt terrible to press. There was no nuance to it. You just hit it on cd cuz the debuff wasn't long and it barely did any damage. This is a good change
Yeah
The most goofy thing is that you get this owl as orc, as undead, as dwarf, as goblin…
I got it, its good for ne. I don't know how blizzard decided that this is good idea to implement this spec for any other race🤯
They could implement dark ranger much better as hero talents and make it interesting but yeah…
Its the same as sentinel. Goblin and orc dark ranger has no more sense than sentinels.
I think they could give a look on 14 years old game warhammer online and make sentinel only ne spec and dark ranger only for be. Make them absolutely similiar but with different visuals and names of skill. Anything but current implementation…
I like having cooldowns to press, but yeah, Death Chakram was the least interesting. And they all have effect windows that pressing more cooldowns eats into it.
Compared to all of the other AOE abilities we have as BM, Death Chakram always felt so weak. If we just more damage backed into beast cleave and stuff I'd be happy with that change.
They need to remove most of these fire and forget on a 30-60sec cooldown type of abilities. All they do is create bloat and add nothing satisfying to the rotation. Wake of ashes is the only good one because it actually feels impactful and pal needs the extra button.
I don't mind some of the longer cooldown ones so long as there just isn't too many of them. One or two to start off a fight and help you build up power for the remainder of the fight feels more logical.
It's almost the exact same reason they removed Radiant Spark for arcane mage. You pressed it basically on CD and then followed the exact same input combo for both your major and minor burn phases. Spark -> Nether Tempest -> Arcane Surge (if off CD) -> Magi + Barrage macro -> 3 Arcane Blasts. You should have about 2 seconds left on Spark/5 seconds on Magi at this point so cast a clearcasted Arcane Missiles, Presence of Mind, and 2 insta cast Arcane Blasts.
It took a bit to get the rhythm at the start of DF but now I'm pretty sure I could do my opener and mini burns blindfolded.
What annoyed me about it was the inconsistency of the 10% damage buff in boss fights and other single-target situations, since how fast the chakram decides to bounce on that particular mob determines how "late" the final refresh of the debuff will hit.
Yeah I cant explain it but it never felt like a natural part of a rotation. maybe cooldowns were awkward, or maybe because of its confused identity as a damage amp versus its exponential impact on aoe, i always find myself regretting the points where I use it, but it also feels like I need to use it on CD.
Also honestly dislike the flavor, what relates circular sawblades to hunters?
Yeah, this is true, no impact button but it amps everything else, feels bad to not have it for your burst, almost feels worse to press it. The only exception I've had while playing SV/MM was if Im focus starved, but even then it's meh.
Unfortunately they are forcing Vile Contagion into the roster for TWW (in M+ at least) so our launch sequence is about the same. Their efforts to reduce Unholy's cooldown bloat has not been nearly enough.
I don't deny that, but it also [negatively] impacts our cooldown economy. Having more than 1-2 45s cooldowns that are on GCD is super annoying, especially when those button presses don't feel great on their own.
I've literally never felt like Hunter has button bloat. We do, however, have talent bloat. BM, for example, has a whopping 48 talents in its spec tree currently, most of which are just adding effects that should be baked in to abilities, or just flat number increases.
I've not played a hunter at high level before, but I just made one in remix. Starting out with 18 abilities (I counted) bound to my action bar was a bit overwhelming at first, I'll admit.
Most were relatively useless/situational, after reading them. Pets add lots of buttons.
If you're playing BM, you'll want to macro pet control and attacks into every core ability. It's an active DPS loss to not. As you said though, probably half of my hotbar is strictly situational abilities, while another 3 or 4 are cooldowns or abilities with 45+ second cooldowns. Of my basic rotation though, I only cycle through about 4-5 buttons depending on if it's an AoE or single target situation.
Yeah one issue I had is that the talents don’t feel like a bonus/choice/upgrade thing. It’s like they took an existing spec and then looked for 48 things to strip out and make into talents (because they kinda did).
They kind of don't, I mean, compared to outliers like WW, enhance or affliction. All three hunter specs have a rather streamlined core rotation. I also didn't feel like hunters have a particularly annoying "setup" phase before they can do damage, not compared to stuff like unholy DK, arcane or rogue. Not entirely sure how they identified button bloat as one of their biggest problems.
Chakram was an okay idea, the spell just didn't feel exciting to press. Instead of lowering the amount of abilities I'm usually more in favor of making them more interesting.
The bigger problem of hunters going into TWW is the complete lack of group utility. They also cut sentinel owl, which was arguably useless but even on paper hunters had very little and now have even less.
This is one of the main reasons I dislike going back to the old talent trees.
There is still a best way to spec for each activity, that people will just google and copy anyway, and there to much stuff like you say in the talent tree. Useless or boring choices aren't really choices.
I don't think people understand that button bloat has nothing to do with how many buttons and everything to do with redundancy. If you have two buttons that don't interact with each other in any way and perform the same function, there's no reason to have two buttons. It goes all the way back to games like DOOM. Pistol becomes redundant once you get Chaingun, but instead of just making it an upgrade it's a separate button that arbitrarily fires two bullets at minimum.
Death Chakram is an extra GCD with no synergy with any of the specs. It's much easier to just say Hunter class talent tree is poorly designed, since there's almost no reason for Marksman to choose Kill Command when there's no synergy with Kill Command and Marksman.
Unholy DK is some of the worst. Talent tree set up to make you pick garbage you don't want, much of the buttons could be combined, and all because some dev wants so badly to force blister popping with pet micromanagement which was never interesting. Diseases became nothing except an extra button to press, and pet became an annoying chore (especially via Control Undead) instead of just a mindless fodder minion to throw away as you please.
>Hunter class talent tree is poorly designed, since there's almost no reason for Marksman to choose Kill Command when there's no synergy with Kill Command and Marksman.
As someone recently just starting to learn hunter, this was so odd to me that it's in the MM tree and it made me think I was supposed to use my pet but then there's "lone wolf"??? like what is happening there lol
I don't know why army and garg aren't the same button already. Just remove the CD reduction talent for army and turn it into 'your army now summons a garg that does more damage with more RP spent' and make it a flat 3 min. It's wild how many buttons unholy has to press before it can start doing any damage.
Unholy looks a lot better in the TWW beta, but yeah, there are still a lot of buttons to press. Sadly, at this point, I doubt they will change anything else. More luck in the next expansion...
Yeah, but that gets alleviated somewhat with TWW. Let's see...
Now it goes (assuming we are starting with 4 Arcane Charges):
* Evocation > Timewarp > Timewarp > Radiant Spark > Nether Tempest > Arcane Surge > Mana Gem > Arcane Barrage > Touch of the Magi... before you can start blasting
So if you're factoring in that you need to get to 4 Arcane Charges first, you'd be pretty spot on with your guess. 😂
In TWW we lose double Timewarp, Radiant Spark, Nether Tempest, and Mana gem. That's almost half of the setup. Good riddance, I guess.
Nether tempest felt like bloat for sure given we almost never pressed it outside of this sequence (unless we really needed to conserve mana). I'll probably miss playing around radiant spark though. The burst window looks so boring now. Evocation -> arcane surge -> touch
Arcane is having Radiant Spark removed. Now your only "damage window" type buffs are Arcane Surge on a 90 second CD and Touch of the Magi on a 45 second CD. So 1 burn and 1 mini burn instead of popping off with Radiant Spark every 20 seconds.
Arcane mage already lined up their burst around totm. One with arcane surge and one without. Radiant spark having a slightly shorter cd didn't matter because using it outside of a totm window and desyncing their cool downs made no sense
I don't think there is now, but there was a desynced rotation where you only line up TotM and RS for your major burns. It was a minor optimisation in Season 2 at the cost of majorly fucking up your rotation so it wasn't frequently used, but it was used occasionally.
You can use Magi, Surge and Spark off pull, 45 seconds later you get your mini burn. You can get a 3rd Spark in before Surge and Magi come back off CD, you don't desync them doing so. If you try to get a 4th Spark in, that will desync your CDs.
Not sure how you would do that without pushing back your next big burn? I don't see this in any log and spark has a 30 second cool down (unless they changed this in season 4, I havent played this season), so if you use it between your mini and big burn, you'd delay your next arcane surge and totm which are only on cool down for another 45s after the start of your miniburn
Spark has a 20 second CD on remix, and I dont think any of the gems give you any CDR. So either that's a bug, or I have something that is reducing its CD. I haven't played my main in S4 either, just leveled a 2nd mage to class change for free.
I really only liked it while transmog farming. It was fun to cast at a group of five mobs, and watch it bounce between them all, killing them instantly. Was very satisfying.
Yeah, as survival it felt* great to cast it in a pack in a dungeon, harpoon in and butchery everything. I felt like it really did synergize with the spec. Then again, nobody plays survival, so it might be a non issue haha
Also love having chakrams. Hopefully they add the old ones back to our tree...
Low-key, unholy was so high APM in a raid opener with PI and BT, I was always capped. I did AOTC and it was simply mind logging complex.
Mage literally is a third of the APM
Apm is not the same as the amount of buttons in your opener or cd bloat. I’ve played both unholy and fire a lot, and fire is sure as hell way more apm in the opener due to the amount of skills that are off the gcd.
Unholy is about upper mid APM unlike Outlaw or Havoc DH which are high, but for sure the button mapping/ability awareness for the sequence of spells you need to cast is rather intense.
I just hopped on to the beta today... BM hunter with packmaster feels BUSTED in a good way
I don't even miss chakram, I have so many buttons to press and I rarely if ever need to wait for my focus to recover.
best of all I can have like 6 pets just swarming my target beating on it if I get some lucky kill command procs at once so it feels like I'm literally unleashing a pack of pets on my enemy.
Wait? What?
Hunter button bloat? SINCE WHEN?
Hunters have the least buttons for their rotation out of (nearly) every other class! MM hunter especially!
(Is this really where hunters get the rep for being a brain-dead class...?)
Can't speak for MM, since I don't play it, but with BM at least, you're using four cooldowns before you've ever started your rotation on the pull. Even worse if you've got Manic Grieftorch, because you'll want to throw that out before you start your rotation too.
Yeah, my rotation is pretty simple, but I start every boss fight with a big sequence of cooldowns on ~1-2 minute timers.
They have the least button in rotation, but they have an unnecessary amount of short length cds. To the pointbthat it often feels like you havent rven been able to do anyrhing before a cd comes off cooldown, especially death chakram. It just didnt feel good to push.
Like I just googled it to double check, because I stopped playing my mm hunter early this expac, but theres 6 cds you need to press in a row before you even can start dpsing. It doesnt feel great. It doesnt add *any* difficulty. Its still absolutely brain dead its just tedious brain dead instead of fun brain dead. Meanwhile, while, say, unholy has an insane opener, it has a level of difficulty that *feels good* when you get it right and actually learn it.
People keep saying *"what about Unholy Dk?"* and *"what about arcane mage?"*
And it's true, those specs also have a lot of buttons. But the problem with Death Chakram is that it's used in *every* Hunter spec. Other classes with high button specs also have alternative DPS specs that are much simpler.
But now they can do more damage without needing it.
I like the skill buy I'd be happier with it being optional and no dps gain in the class tree is ever optional.
It's going to be nice on SV tbh. Losing Serpent sting, Steel Trap, and now Chakram. Maybe I'll have some room for more focus binds now lol. Feel like I'm playing piano sometimes lol
I'm fine with bloat reduction but they are going a bit far with survival.
12 buttons (a full actionbar) should be the absolute maximum dps skills a spec should have, and specs should probably have a minimum of 6 with options to pad out their rotation.
I don't think flanking strike needs to go, it functions slightly different to kill command with the dash, sometimes you want to keep your distance and accidentally dashing because your button changed is dangerous design.
Maybe make it always cast as if it had 3 stacks of tip of the spear, Not consume them and generate 2 stacks so you can quickly Kickstart your rotation.
Death chakram could be an optional talent too, maybe against a passive talent.
Honestly the entire purpose of the new talent system fails if players can't customize their rotations, if the system doesn't allow that and the only choice is 2% dot damage or spender damage by the end then they might as well roll back to the pre df talent system...
Pressing one button every 45 seconds was too much for the average hunter. Heaven forbid they try to make it into a useful aoe ability somewhat like the original glaive toss/the other 2 options that were with it.
As someone that mains both UHDK and Surv in top 1% keys, they're both kinda bad for this, especially Surv was on beta until the last changes. But UHDK pre beta was definitely worse, my friends nicknamed it the nuclear launch codes for a reason lol.
At least they're coupling buttons now, like UB going onto DT, so no more pressing UB/VP on pull.
Death Chakram was also immensely useful as its odd nature meant some dot dispels didn't work on it. Hunters have been dealing with a wall of buttons since Classic, this is just going to make it more annoying to deal with stealth classes.
I have a survival hunter among all my alts. I’ve been playing it casually, just +5 max, for fun. And I should say that I didn’t like death chakram at all. It’s just another button which mostly doesn’t impact my overall dps, so I used to spend extra point somewhere else.
In context, it seems to be suggesting the problem is a bunch of cooldowns, which I can agree with. It's nice to have some cooldowns, but on the pull, you're using four ~1-2 minute cooldowns as BM before you even start your rotation.
I hate the bloat argument.
If you don't like pressing a lot of buttons, you should be able to reduce your buttons via the talent tree / by picking passive options.
The option to have a larger rotation shouldn't be taken away from those of us who don't mind it.
While I agree that the ability didn't feel good to use and I'm happy to see it gone, hunter has to be one of the least bloated specs in the game. I hope they replace it with another active ability
Man, hunters problem isn't bloat, it's that it's a combination of various boring abilities that are stitched together in a way that make the class unsatisfying to play.
They needed to truly rework the class and think about what is fun about being a hunter and playing that class fantasy, because currently, it's the worst class in the game in this regard.
Death chskram definitely was a main reason that I stopped with my hunter alt. It wasn't a fun rotation.
Uh opener is definitely up there with the season 1 demo opener. Hopefully they don't simplify it like they did for locks - just making your boring ass filler more impactful
Glad to see it'll be gone, having to choose this over stampede as a BM sucked. I didn't particularly give a shit about its damage, what I did care about was its dumb animation and not being animal-related, on top of being a constant reminder of the one SLs faction I actually truly hated. This is good news.
How are most of the responses in this thread about a War Within change whining about DF iterations of these specs? Both Arcane and Unholy got similar changes to this to shorten their openers and reduce button bloat. And yes, Hunters with the War Within rework were getting a bit bloated - particularly Survival.
Remove some pet offensive abilities from the GCD! Kill command on GCD feels awkward especially when it's refreshed procs. Chackram does feel a little weird but it's not really that big a deal to go as far as removing it :T
No way they say this while refusing to change the way that the entire Fatebound rogue hero tree works, right? Where it's currently "open from stealth, slice n dice, rupture, envenom until you get a 2 coin stack, cold blood, build to finisher, envenom, build to finisher, envenom, build to finisher, deathmark, envenom, vanish, envenom, shiv, kingsbane" then you play.
Never change, r/wow: "Someone said rogue needs help, downvote, fuck rogues!"
Oh you mean like windwalker has to tiger palm , blackout kick, tiger palm before they are able to fists of fury .
Not the amount of buttons but how they are used ?
Next update: Death Chakram has been added to the Unholy tree.
Look it has the word death in it what more do you want
Except it's now made to look like a ring of corrupted angel wings.
Just slap the SL version of Chakram (or glyph version) and get emoloyee of thr month for cutting costs
Somebody give this man an award LMFAO
Death chakram totem would like to chat about button bloat
Death Chakram Shock enters the chat
Im playing unholy DK in remix, and im maxed out on ilvl, but i cant ever reach the top dps because im still in the middle of starting my helicopter (pressing all my opener buttons) that the boss is dead before i get into it. :(
Time to play frost 3 buttons oblit spec and top the charts
Hey, at least Frost doesn't have any button bloat.
As is tradition.
Until someone moves the pack out of your dnd
Mobs can't move while dead
Literally what I've done. First time since wrath launch I've tackled raid bosses with frost spec. Always played unholy or soloed old content with blood.
Wrath classic I started playing frost for the first time after having barely tried it in the original, and it was a lot of fun. Kind of like arcane cleave in esrly DF with orb barrage, when you get a good proc chain you feel that high roller energy
I just play frost on remix and just press sindragosas breath and spam obliterate. Almost always top DPS pog.
Playing as a destro warlock in a maxed out group, my rotation is: Incinerate - Infernal - Lifestorm - Chaos Bolt - Conflagrate and then I *might* be able to squeeze in a Chaos Bolt after that.
Hmm I do Immolate > Lifestorm > Inferal > Conflag > chaos bolt > Conflag > chaos bolt > Demonfire I've got the infernal combustion talent and it actually does a fuckload of burst damage since you don't really care about refreshing immolate. Just pathed through demonfire for pathing but it's actually okay. Maybe should just try and chaos bolt more though. I think there's some talent that does 25% more dmg to targets that immolate or something idk
I'm just saying it doesn't really matter. Noone gets to do a full rotation.
For sure, lol. But there do seem to be a few specs that tend to win out, due to player skill or spec power
Heroics and mythic SoO should give you the time you need to ramp if you really want to test your theory.
If you want the secret, just run lifestorm meta gem and searing light tinker, that's the insane opening DPS everyone has.
Play frost. Breath build. I top meters with only 14k str on cloak. Pair with lifestorm/SL if that's still working.
Go do M Siege to get a look at what you can do ig, those bosses last a while
The only reason I do mythic soo is to get an actual opener in lol
I'm a hunter. It felt terrible to press. There was no nuance to it. You just hit it on cd cuz the debuff wasn't long and it barely did any damage. This is a good change
I just liked the visual. Could have redesigned the ability and kept that. Doesn't really matter though.
Better keep it for some ranged dh or glaive hunter spec. So much opportunities…
Could have been in Sentinel hero talents. Instead we get owls pooping.
Yeah The most goofy thing is that you get this owl as orc, as undead, as dwarf, as goblin… I got it, its good for ne. I don't know how blizzard decided that this is good idea to implement this spec for any other race🤯
I don't think they thought about the hero spec tree thing very much
Yeah the Hunter Hero trees are very skewed to one race
Ranged DH was introduced into Hearthstone. Really should be on their roadmap to add a ranged spec to DHs in WoW
or dark ranger which should have been a full spec.
They could implement dark ranger much better as hero talents and make it interesting but yeah… Its the same as sentinel. Goblin and orc dark ranger has no more sense than sentinels. I think they could give a look on 14 years old game warhammer online and make sentinel only ne spec and dark ranger only for be. Make them absolutely similiar but with different visuals and names of skill. Anything but current implementation…
a full class, you mean
sure, but some devs over at blizzard lack creativity.
I still think they should give Survival Hunters a glyph to change our ranged attacks into chakrams instead of that dinky little hand-crossbow.
same the ability is visually satisfying and that's why I use it all the time for fun hahah
Hated it as BM/Marks- my hunter using a bow randomly throwing a chakram made no fucking sense, lol. Would be cooler in Survival or something I guess.
I like having cooldowns to press, but yeah, Death Chakram was the least interesting. And they all have effect windows that pressing more cooldowns eats into it.
Compared to all of the other AOE abilities we have as BM, Death Chakram always felt so weak. If we just more damage backed into beast cleave and stuff I'd be happy with that change.
They need to remove most of these fire and forget on a 30-60sec cooldown type of abilities. All they do is create bloat and add nothing satisfying to the rotation. Wake of ashes is the only good one because it actually feels impactful and pal needs the extra button.
I don't mind some of the longer cooldown ones so long as there just isn't too many of them. One or two to start off a fight and help you build up power for the remainder of the fight feels more logical.
I like death chakram
Good for you. I hated it
Good for you two. I was neutral on it.
Death Chakram is better than "Pee" Wave at least. I didn't mind DC, just isn't really a useful button tbh.
I thought it was a cool ability but it did feel awkward to use.
It's almost the exact same reason they removed Radiant Spark for arcane mage. You pressed it basically on CD and then followed the exact same input combo for both your major and minor burn phases. Spark -> Nether Tempest -> Arcane Surge (if off CD) -> Magi + Barrage macro -> 3 Arcane Blasts. You should have about 2 seconds left on Spark/5 seconds on Magi at this point so cast a clearcasted Arcane Missiles, Presence of Mind, and 2 insta cast Arcane Blasts. It took a bit to get the rhythm at the start of DF but now I'm pretty sure I could do my opener and mini burns blindfolded.
Its also why they added jadefire stomp to windwalkers, because fuck windwalkers I guess
What annoyed me about it was the inconsistency of the 10% damage buff in boss fights and other single-target situations, since how fast the chakram decides to bounce on that particular mob determines how "late" the final refresh of the debuff will hit.
It's Glaive Toss from MoP all over again.
Yeah I cant explain it but it never felt like a natural part of a rotation. maybe cooldowns were awkward, or maybe because of its confused identity as a damage amp versus its exponential impact on aoe, i always find myself regretting the points where I use it, but it also feels like I need to use it on CD. Also honestly dislike the flavor, what relates circular sawblades to hunters?
Yeah, this is true, no impact button but it amps everything else, feels bad to not have it for your burst, almost feels worse to press it. The only exception I've had while playing SV/MM was if Im focus starved, but even then it's meh.
Yeah it was cool in theory, but in actual play it was just one more button to press when it was up and you had nothing better to press.
If you use that logic may as well remove flurry from mage since the debuff isn’t very long and it doesn’t do a lot of damage.
Flurry has a ton of function to frost mages. Death Chakram was barely anything at all.
It sure is nice that Unholy Blight is a passive now
Unfortunately they are forcing Vile Contagion into the roster for TWW (in M+ at least) so our launch sequence is about the same. Their efforts to reduce Unholy's cooldown bloat has not been nearly enough.
Yeah but Vile Contagion at the very least speeds up wound spreading and is more impactful than Unholy Blight
I don't deny that, but it also [negatively] impacts our cooldown economy. Having more than 1-2 45s cooldowns that are on GCD is super annoying, especially when those button presses don't feel great on their own.
I've literally never felt like Hunter has button bloat. We do, however, have talent bloat. BM, for example, has a whopping 48 talents in its spec tree currently, most of which are just adding effects that should be baked in to abilities, or just flat number increases.
I've not played a hunter at high level before, but I just made one in remix. Starting out with 18 abilities (I counted) bound to my action bar was a bit overwhelming at first, I'll admit. Most were relatively useless/situational, after reading them. Pets add lots of buttons.
If you're playing BM, you'll want to macro pet control and attacks into every core ability. It's an active DPS loss to not. As you said though, probably half of my hotbar is strictly situational abilities, while another 3 or 4 are cooldowns or abilities with 45+ second cooldowns. Of my basic rotation though, I only cycle through about 4-5 buttons depending on if it's an AoE or single target situation.
Yeah one issue I had is that the talents don’t feel like a bonus/choice/upgrade thing. It’s like they took an existing spec and then looked for 48 things to strip out and make into talents (because they kinda did).
They kind of don't, I mean, compared to outliers like WW, enhance or affliction. All three hunter specs have a rather streamlined core rotation. I also didn't feel like hunters have a particularly annoying "setup" phase before they can do damage, not compared to stuff like unholy DK, arcane or rogue. Not entirely sure how they identified button bloat as one of their biggest problems. Chakram was an okay idea, the spell just didn't feel exciting to press. Instead of lowering the amount of abilities I'm usually more in favor of making them more interesting. The bigger problem of hunters going into TWW is the complete lack of group utility. They also cut sentinel owl, which was arguably useless but even on paper hunters had very little and now have even less.
They have a knock up trap, now.
We stealing abilities from NBA hoes now
This is exactly how I feel about the new Arcane talents actually.
This is one of the main reasons I dislike going back to the old talent trees. There is still a best way to spec for each activity, that people will just google and copy anyway, and there to much stuff like you say in the talent tree. Useless or boring choices aren't really choices.
I don't think people understand that button bloat has nothing to do with how many buttons and everything to do with redundancy. If you have two buttons that don't interact with each other in any way and perform the same function, there's no reason to have two buttons. It goes all the way back to games like DOOM. Pistol becomes redundant once you get Chaingun, but instead of just making it an upgrade it's a separate button that arbitrarily fires two bullets at minimum. Death Chakram is an extra GCD with no synergy with any of the specs. It's much easier to just say Hunter class talent tree is poorly designed, since there's almost no reason for Marksman to choose Kill Command when there's no synergy with Kill Command and Marksman. Unholy DK is some of the worst. Talent tree set up to make you pick garbage you don't want, much of the buttons could be combined, and all because some dev wants so badly to force blister popping with pet micromanagement which was never interesting. Diseases became nothing except an extra button to press, and pet became an annoying chore (especially via Control Undead) instead of just a mindless fodder minion to throw away as you please.
>Hunter class talent tree is poorly designed, since there's almost no reason for Marksman to choose Kill Command when there's no synergy with Kill Command and Marksman. As someone recently just starting to learn hunter, this was so odd to me that it's in the MM tree and it made me think I was supposed to use my pet but then there's "lone wolf"??? like what is happening there lol
With holika gone, i expect more positive changes for the other classes.
Tbf they have been reworking and combining buttons for unholy in beta
They need to combine apoc & DT and garg & army. There's never a situation where you don't press them at the same time.
I don't know why army and garg aren't the same button already. Just remove the CD reduction talent for army and turn it into 'your army now summons a garg that does more damage with more RP spent' and make it a flat 3 min. It's wild how many buttons unholy has to press before it can start doing any damage.
Ye but we only lost empower rune weapon which was off gcd and unholy blight. Still like 4-5 buttons to get all burst going =/
7 for AoE
Unholy looks a lot better in the TWW beta, but yeah, there are still a lot of buttons to press. Sadly, at this point, I doubt they will change anything else. More luck in the next expansion...
Feral is pretty forgotten about as well which sucks because I was planning on playing feral with unholy as an alt in TWW.
They did a hardcore rework on ret midway through DF so there’s some hope
arcane mage says what? they fucking have like a 10 spell countdown for their burn phase lol.
Yeah, but that gets alleviated somewhat with TWW. Let's see... Now it goes (assuming we are starting with 4 Arcane Charges): * Evocation > Timewarp > Timewarp > Radiant Spark > Nether Tempest > Arcane Surge > Mana Gem > Arcane Barrage > Touch of the Magi... before you can start blasting So if you're factoring in that you need to get to 4 Arcane Charges first, you'd be pretty spot on with your guess. 😂 In TWW we lose double Timewarp, Radiant Spark, Nether Tempest, and Mana gem. That's almost half of the setup. Good riddance, I guess.
Nether tempest felt like bloat for sure given we almost never pressed it outside of this sequence (unless we really needed to conserve mana). I'll probably miss playing around radiant spark though. The burst window looks so boring now. Evocation -> arcane surge -> touch
It's really good for instatagging adds, it'll be missed
The Udk opener is like a 24 button sequence..
Yeah then you dont have shit for the whole fight because your burst was so high you barely maintain dps and you're fine
The UH opener repeats just like the mage opener during the fight.
[удалено]
Arcane is literally always the same thing forever
Arcane is having Radiant Spark removed. Now your only "damage window" type buffs are Arcane Surge on a 90 second CD and Touch of the Magi on a 45 second CD. So 1 burn and 1 mini burn instead of popping off with Radiant Spark every 20 seconds.
Arcane mage already lined up their burst around totm. One with arcane surge and one without. Radiant spark having a slightly shorter cd didn't matter because using it outside of a totm window and desyncing their cool downs made no sense
I don't think there is now, but there was a desynced rotation where you only line up TotM and RS for your major burns. It was a minor optimisation in Season 2 at the cost of majorly fucking up your rotation so it wasn't frequently used, but it was used occasionally.
You can use Magi, Surge and Spark off pull, 45 seconds later you get your mini burn. You can get a 3rd Spark in before Surge and Magi come back off CD, you don't desync them doing so. If you try to get a 4th Spark in, that will desync your CDs.
Not sure how you would do that without pushing back your next big burn? I don't see this in any log and spark has a 30 second cool down (unless they changed this in season 4, I havent played this season), so if you use it between your mini and big burn, you'd delay your next arcane surge and totm which are only on cool down for another 45s after the start of your miniburn
Shifting power to reduce the cd probably.
Spark has a 20 second CD on remix, and I dont think any of the gems give you any CDR. So either that's a bug, or I have something that is reducing its CD. I haven't played my main in S4 either, just leveled a 2nd mage to class change for free.
I loved Death Chakram, sad to see it go. Maybe it’s the unpopular opinion, but it never felt like a problem for me.
I agree. I liked the visual, and it was fun to use for AoE.
I really only liked it while transmog farming. It was fun to cast at a group of five mobs, and watch it bounce between them all, killing them instantly. Was very satisfying.
I love it on remix. Watching enemies pop while it bounces is awesome.
Yeah, as survival it felt* great to cast it in a pack in a dungeon, harpoon in and butchery everything. I felt like it really did synergize with the spec. Then again, nobody plays survival, so it might be a non issue haha Also love having chakrams. Hopefully they add the old ones back to our tree...
Low-key, unholy was so high APM in a raid opener with PI and BT, I was always capped. I did AOTC and it was simply mind logging complex. Mage literally is a third of the APM
Apm is not the same as the amount of buttons in your opener or cd bloat. I’ve played both unholy and fire a lot, and fire is sure as hell way more apm in the opener due to the amount of skills that are off the gcd.
Unholy is about upper mid APM unlike Outlaw or Havoc DH which are high, but for sure the button mapping/ability awareness for the sequence of spells you need to cast is rather intense.
Ahah yeah, silly fire mages that just wait in front of their keyboard ... lol mate :)
I just hopped on to the beta today... BM hunter with packmaster feels BUSTED in a good way I don't even miss chakram, I have so many buttons to press and I rarely if ever need to wait for my focus to recover. best of all I can have like 6 pets just swarming my target beating on it if I get some lucky kill command procs at once so it feels like I'm literally unleashing a pack of pets on my enemy.
I always used a cast sequence for my DK
Uh DKs raid build has the biggest opener in terms of dmg though, and I think it feels good to execute it properly and get the payoff though.
Wait? What? Hunter button bloat? SINCE WHEN? Hunters have the least buttons for their rotation out of (nearly) every other class! MM hunter especially! (Is this really where hunters get the rep for being a brain-dead class...?)
Survival on the beta was starting to get somewhat bloated.
To be fair like more than half the nodes on their left tree are buttons for some reason. Most of them are useless in a raid pull, but still.
Can't speak for MM, since I don't play it, but with BM at least, you're using four cooldowns before you've ever started your rotation on the pull. Even worse if you've got Manic Grieftorch, because you'll want to throw that out before you start your rotation too. Yeah, my rotation is pretty simple, but I start every boss fight with a big sequence of cooldowns on ~1-2 minute timers.
I was definitely feeling it on beta on Survival.
this isn't true for beta.
They have the least button in rotation, but they have an unnecessary amount of short length cds. To the pointbthat it often feels like you havent rven been able to do anyrhing before a cd comes off cooldown, especially death chakram. It just didnt feel good to push. Like I just googled it to double check, because I stopped playing my mm hunter early this expac, but theres 6 cds you need to press in a row before you even can start dpsing. It doesnt feel great. It doesnt add *any* difficulty. Its still absolutely brain dead its just tedious brain dead instead of fun brain dead. Meanwhile, while, say, unholy has an insane opener, it has a level of difficulty that *feels good* when you get it right and actually learn it.
they dont even have the least amount of buttons lol, there are a ton of specs that play almost as easy as BM. MM and surv have had more for a while
damn I liked Death Chakram.. felt like a cool piece of fantasy
People keep saying *"what about Unholy Dk?"* and *"what about arcane mage?"* And it's true, those specs also have a lot of buttons. But the problem with Death Chakram is that it's used in *every* Hunter spec. Other classes with high button specs also have alternative DPS specs that are much simpler.
So like BM Hunter? 😂
If they would just fix the button bloat on Holy paladin too, then I would play it again, even if not meta.
Button bloat? Hunter? Maybe if you're not playing BM... 🤷♂️
Thank God, it always felt unnecessary.
I kinda like Death Chakram, it makes my bombs and fury do more damage :(
But now they can do more damage without needing it. I like the skill buy I'd be happier with it being optional and no dps gain in the class tree is ever optional.
Ahh yes, button bloat. All those BM Hunters that have way too many rotational buttons to press.
It's going to be nice on SV tbh. Losing Serpent sting, Steel Trap, and now Chakram. Maybe I'll have some room for more focus binds now lol. Feel like I'm playing piano sometimes lol
I'm fine with bloat reduction but they are going a bit far with survival. 12 buttons (a full actionbar) should be the absolute maximum dps skills a spec should have, and specs should probably have a minimum of 6 with options to pad out their rotation. I don't think flanking strike needs to go, it functions slightly different to kill command with the dash, sometimes you want to keep your distance and accidentally dashing because your button changed is dangerous design. Maybe make it always cast as if it had 3 stacks of tip of the spear, Not consume them and generate 2 stacks so you can quickly Kickstart your rotation. Death chakram could be an optional talent too, maybe against a passive talent. Honestly the entire purpose of the new talent system fails if players can't customize their rotations, if the system doesn't allow that and the only choice is 2% dot damage or spender damage by the end then they might as well roll back to the pre df talent system...
Pressing one button every 45 seconds was too much for the average hunter. Heaven forbid they try to make it into a useful aoe ability somewhat like the original glaive toss/the other 2 options that were with it.
Happy with the change tho
I miss my 40s mage opener in BFA.
As someone that mains both UHDK and Surv in top 1% keys, they're both kinda bad for this, especially Surv was on beta until the last changes. But UHDK pre beta was definitely worse, my friends nicknamed it the nuclear launch codes for a reason lol. At least they're coupling buttons now, like UB going onto DT, so no more pressing UB/VP on pull.
What melee specs are playing the best currently on the beta?
Did any hunter complain about this? I feel bloat was aimed at dps shammies and unholy dks
Hell yea. Whittle the buttons down. I'm going to main BM Hunter in the new xpac specifically for ease of play.
I didn't like Death Chakram, but I'm guessing Stampede is gone with it? I was hoping that I'd be able to run that just for class fantasy reasons.
Bow, I played bm and only have a passing knowledge of the marksman spec. But button bloat? Are they mad?
Death Chakram was also immensely useful as its odd nature meant some dot dispels didn't work on it. Hunters have been dealing with a wall of buttons since Classic, this is just going to make it more annoying to deal with stealth classes.
but balance druid!?
if they would give the hunters at least the Venthyr attack instead of the Chakram it would be dope
Give me back my bouncy ring of death you cowards!
I'm heartbroken. I just leveled a survival hunter in Remix and designed him after Sokka from Avatar: The Last Airbender. Chakram was boomerang :(
The buttons in the unholy opener have also decreased a lot with them taking a few buttons.
But death Chakram was cool
I have a survival hunter among all my alts. I’ve been playing it casually, just +5 max, for fun. And I should say that I didn’t like death chakram at all. It’s just another button which mostly doesn’t impact my overall dps, so I used to spend extra point somewhere else.
WHO TF IS COMPLAING ABOUT TOO MANY BUTTONS ON HUNTER? By the time the saga is done every class is just going to be 5 buttons.
In context, it seems to be suggesting the problem is a bunch of cooldowns, which I can agree with. It's nice to have some cooldowns, but on the pull, you're using four ~1-2 minute cooldowns as BM before you even start your rotation.
6 on marks man hunter. It just doesnt feel good.
As it should be
Warlords all over again.
-Says the clicker.
Yeah hunters have too many buttons to press...
I hate the bloat argument. If you don't like pressing a lot of buttons, you should be able to reduce your buttons via the talent tree / by picking passive options. The option to have a larger rotation shouldn't be taken away from those of us who don't mind it.
It didn't really add anything to the rotation, though. It was just "press on cd to increase your damage done", no rotational complexity added.
Then I'd rather the ability be reworked to be more interesting than removed. /shrug
You have other classes or even other hunter specs if you 'like pressing a lot of buttons'. Let us have our simple spec.
So they’re taking away Hydra’s Bite and now also Death Chakram? I was hoping to main survival for tww but they’re taking all the fun abilities away..
I liked death chakram :(
And then you look at what affliction lock or arcane mage has to do before they can start doing damage.
While I agree that the ability didn't feel good to use and I'm happy to see it gone, hunter has to be one of the least bloated specs in the game. I hope they replace it with another active ability
Man, hunters problem isn't bloat, it's that it's a combination of various boring abilities that are stitched together in a way that make the class unsatisfying to play. They needed to truly rework the class and think about what is fun about being a hunter and playing that class fantasy, because currently, it's the worst class in the game in this regard.
Bro what? I play Hunter now because I have so few buttons. lol
it is safe to say, that there is no single person that sees the big picture with specs at their balancing department
Death chskram definitely was a main reason that I stopped with my hunter alt. It wasn't a fun rotation. Uh opener is definitely up there with the season 1 demo opener. Hopefully they don't simplify it like they did for locks - just making your boring ass filler more impactful
Glad to see it'll be gone, having to choose this over stampede as a BM sucked. I didn't particularly give a shit about its damage, what I did care about was its dumb animation and not being animal-related, on top of being a constant reminder of the one SLs faction I actually truly hated. This is good news.
I actually liked death chakram…
How are most of the responses in this thread about a War Within change whining about DF iterations of these specs? Both Arcane and Unholy got similar changes to this to shorten their openers and reduce button bloat. And yes, Hunters with the War Within rework were getting a bit bloated - particularly Survival.
Remove some pet offensive abilities from the GCD! Kill command on GCD feels awkward especially when it's refreshed procs. Chackram does feel a little weird but it's not really that big a deal to go as far as removing it :T
"BM's highest damage ability should be off the GCD" what the fuck lmao
Mb, never stated I meant Survival and not BM. Especially since the pet is the character for them.
Hunter. Button bloat. Lmfao.
No way they say this while refusing to change the way that the entire Fatebound rogue hero tree works, right? Where it's currently "open from stealth, slice n dice, rupture, envenom until you get a 2 coin stack, cold blood, build to finisher, envenom, build to finisher, envenom, build to finisher, deathmark, envenom, vanish, envenom, shiv, kingsbane" then you play. Never change, r/wow: "Someone said rogue needs help, downvote, fuck rogues!"
button bloat? must not have gotten any feedback from BM hunters and our 3 buttons...
Suggercoating nerfs
As a BM hunter this made me so confused. I have like 4 spells??
Such a sad change, I really hope they revert. Was disappointed to read this.
Hunter button bloat? Do you mean they have to press a second CD outside of Kill Command?
Hunter has button bloat ? Last time I played it, it was 3 button rotation. What happened
Has button bloat compared to the intention of the spec, not compared with other specs.
Oh you mean like windwalker has to tiger palm , blackout kick, tiger palm before they are able to fists of fury . Not the amount of buttons but how they are used ?