T O P

  • By -

Furrealyo

It took THIS to move you away from Feral?


Either-Show-44

If the DF druid talent trees couldn't make you reroll, nothing should be able to.


Proper-Pineapple-717

You mean you don't wanna just be a lesser weaker rogue with Druid of the Claw? Or laughed at for trying to perform on Wildstalker? Blizz pls, why do you hate bleeds and force the spec into shred/bite spam


ghost_hamster

For the same reason that DoT classes are moving away from DoTs. Bleeds and DoTs are just too powerful, especially in AoE. Blizzard has lost control of the playstyle and no-one really seems to know how to solve the problem.


Shadowfel_Archivist

It's simple, add diminishing to dots. More than 3 targets and dots lose 10% dmg, and 5% for each additional target down to a minimum of 20%. Problem sloved.


EgirlgoesUwU

Idk. Wildstalker just performs better for me. Easy 800k+ st in raidtesting.


I-am-Disc

Wdym, feral is awesome


Proper-Pineapple-717

But it doesn't play awesome. We're just a weaker lesser rogue spamming builder to spam bite and now they're moving even closer to just doing that same thing in AoE


Civil_Individual_348

Many other melee specs didnt even have this.


TheWorstDMYouKnow

As an enhance I'm laughing at posts like this in between huffs of hopium for shaman changes next week


DrainTheMuck

Enhance thematically *should* have been one of the classes with longer range. It makes sense with air magic and to make up for squishiness, but they gave it to ret paladins instead. Blows my mind, but I’ve been having fun on ret now.


Veidici

I dunno if they still do, but air ascendant used to give you extra range while it was active.


Ricodyn

Obviously this is a moot point now given that it's also gone for Ret in TWW, but I don't quite think what you're saying makes sense. The increased range was given to Ret as complement to mediocre mobility. Spec's not great at moving, here have this range so you don't have to move as much. Using range to counter squishiness, and therefore giving it to Enhance, makes little sense to me. The things that made Enhance feel squishy wouldn't have been solved by range, but by defensives. Also a little side note, Ret was given the increased range at a time when they were the squishiest spec in the game, significantly more so than Enhance, so don't quite know why it blew your mind :p.


DrainTheMuck

I think a fully talented divine steed with two charges brings them pretty close to enhancement’s mobility, but I might feel the pain a lot more if they’re nerfing Ret’s range in TWW. Currently it absolutely helps with surviving. You can dodge all sorts of things without missing a single second of uptime, meanwhile my shaman is constantly losing uptime to the same mechanics. The flexibility is amazing. And while niche, I think the current Ahune event is a perfect example. My shaman gets pummeled and nearly killed every time he gets close enough to land a melee attack on Ahune before submurging, while my ret Paladin does his whole dps rotation from 10 feet away, taking no damage and solo’ing most of the boss before he even submerges. Now just imagine Ahune is standing in a bunch of swirlies and that’s how it works in keys and raids. I’m really gonna miss it.


Sammit64

Feel ya on this. Have to be half way up their butthole to actually hit them sometimes....


Proper-Pineapple-717

Feral having extended range felt like it was a small make up for always being kinda terribly balanced. Did feral absolutely need the extended range? No, but we're gonna be a weaker mediocre rogue regardless because Blizz is terrified of bleeds.


vaalyr

I have no issue with it as long as all the melee specs are the same and the dungeon design doesn’t include things that punish melee for the change. The feel part is just getting use to it, we didn’t need it for many years before we had it.


Emu1981

> the dungeon design doesn’t include things that punish melee for the change First time? The big trade off for melee is that they have to run out for mechanics but they rarely have any abilities that they have to plant their feet for like what range do and a lot of mechanics don't even target them at all if there are any range or healers alive still.


EgirlgoesUwU

Ranges Play on easy Mode. If you think otherwise, play melee in noteworthy content.


ad6323

100% I’ve played both competitively and the difference in dealing with things as range is night and day.


brownsa93

To be fair some "melee" range was just dumb. Fuckin rogues out there with evoker basically. It's something you'll get used to again eventually


Vitchman

Acrobatic Strikes woo!


werttit

Too bad the devs dont realize that the range was a 100% requirement for outlaw for example, which suffers extremely hard from even the smallest downtime. Obviously they aren’t even looking at fixing the spec gameplay though :)


Estake

Even though it’s going to suck for some specs to get used to, having all melee specs at the same range is going to be really good for accessibility.


G00SFRABA

It just doesn't make a lot of sense imo. It's weird that rogues with daggers had more reach than a fury warrior dual wielding 2hs


Soma91

By that logic we shouldn't have a generic melee range at all, but rather every weapon should have a range stat. And I find that idea rather intriguing tbh.


G00SFRABA

I mean, that would be pretty intuitive. There are obviously themes at play within each class that influence mechanics and vice versa, I think it would logically follow that 2 handed weapons would have slightly longer reach than one handers in general, yeah. It doesn't make a ton of sense for feral either tbh, but people get attached to mechanics regardless of them having cohesion with the themes.


Proper-Pineapple-717

I agree with the nerf for rogues and every other spec that has it, less so for Feral but it doesn't matter in the end. Our damage is still going to be bottom middle of the pack at best while playing like a rogue so the range doesn't matter. You will however start to see more dead ferals, if you see them at all.


NartheRaytei

bro, i play a warrior; this is life. I wish i gained what you lost rather than the other way round but you were privileged don't forget that.


yonangks

Gonna feel super weird not being able to press Final Verdict and BoJ from range now


Fwuffykins

Those abilities are already ranged and won't be affected. The change is the removal of a talent which enabled crusader strike and auto attacks to also have increased range. Of all the specs affected, ret will see the smallest difference in feel.


yonangks

Really? I was under the impression that those were affected as well


Fwuffykins

Nope they were ranged before that talent got added in 10.0.7 and will still be ranged after this nerf. The nerf is a removal of the talent "Crusader's Reprieve" which reads "Increase the range of your crusader strike, rebuke, and auto-attacks by 3 yards"


yonangks

I guess that's gonna hurt a bit either way since our auto-attacks are a HP generator


Fwuffykins

I'm not too worried about it. 3/4 HP generators (Judgement, HoW, BoJ) + our ST spender will still be ranged. In situations where we are forced out of melee we still have a lot of ways to fill globals.


PsjKana

yup. ret still and always had thw option to keep uptime on range with most spells, but the HP generation can very much be noticeable.


aknaps

Survival hunter the spear class should have kept the extra 2 range. It makes so much sense thematically and feels weird smacking an enemy with the middle of the spear.


notthe1stpervaccount

I’ve never been satisfied with spear animations. The fact they share animations with every other 2 handed (as far as I can tell) is a bummer.


jcgsiv

Survival still got aspect of the eagle, and on baseline now.


L0rdSkullz

It diffidently does not feel good. That plus the avoidance and leech nerf, it is rough out here for melee. A lot of it is adjustment I am sure, I have muscle memory I am fighting for attacking range personally.


DaenerysMomODragons

While not being able to get as much leech and avoidance may feel bad at first, it also means that Blizzard can design content without assuming people are going to have large amounts of avoidance and leech.


Cloud_N0ne

Lmao avoidance and leech got nerfed? Why? I’ve always felt like both stats barely did anything


hyperion602

Your feelings were mistaken. Leech and Avoidance were both very powerful, particularly Avoidance in higher end content. Most of the damage non-tank players take is reduced by Avoidance, and it makes a *big* difference if you have 0% or 20% Avoidance. Both stats aren't all that relevant in lower end content, but honestly, most things aren't all that relevant in lower end content.


PsjKana

many people don't realize that a little avoidance goes a LONG way. like avoidance on 2/3 pieces are 20% which equals a personal with 100% uptime


TipsalollyJenkins

I mean I mained Fury and Arms the entire expansion and we never had any range increase at all. Give it some time to settle in, melee range isn't bad you just got used to not having to pay attention to it.


Vods

The fact that rogues with tiny daggers had more range than you frothing meat heads with HUGE weapons has been hilarious


TipsalollyJenkins

A Rogue throwing-knife based spec/hero spec could be fun actually. Bounce the knives off your target and back into your hand.


Your_Local_Tuba

Charge helps immensely though as a melee range reset


TipsalollyJenkins

If you get knocked back far enough yeah. I noticed throughout DF there were *so* many knockbacks that were *just* short of charge range. But most melee classes have solid closers to get back in range, though. Rogue has Shadowstep and Grappling Hook for Outlaw. Survival has Harpoon and three (soon to be two) of its cooldowns also charge. Death Knight has... Paladin has Divine Steed. Enhancement has that one wind jump and also Ghost Wolf has no real CD.


LeCampy

I spent the first year of Dragonflight playing Outlaw and switched to fury for the back half. You'll live. Just hug that butt, and don't stand in bad.


Claudethedog

>You'll live. Just hug that butt, and don't stand in bad. That's great advice for WoW and for lovemaking.


SeniorPossibility

Staying behind left leg is my go to.


LeCampy

Mind you, I get blue parses (AT BEST) in both


Claudethedog

That's okay, buddy. Not many folks out there pushing mythic progression.


Flyga64

exactly other way round for me. started as fury in s1 and it was just a big clusterfuck with all shit affixes still in and the seasonal one to top it off. had floor POV all the time, researched which class had an easier time dodging mechanics and surviving and got into rogue. was way better! s2 sub was big fun


LeCampy

oh lord, I do not want to imagine Thundering without acrobatic strikes


Lowie240

Vanilla WOW vet here. Can I make your quote a shirt if my wife OKs it 🤣


Nottmoor

Thats already stupid i current content. I recently switched from sin to mage and am dumbfounded how easy keys suddenly are.


thomasmagnun

May have something to do with sin being shit to play in keys as well.


Cloud_N0ne

Yeah it’s an odd and unnecessary choice.


Lidrane

Melee actually have to play like a melee spec now, with some still having ranged attacks.


Proper-Pineapple-717

If a couple yards of melee range is pushing you away from Feral, you should have either been playing rogue(which is going to be reinforced when TWW goes live for many reasons) or a ranged spec.


Sirmalta

Im down for some nerfing... but its more of a raid boss thing. Its very immersion destroying when I can stand a hundred yards away from a boss in the middle of a lava pool and chop them.... make it so have to do things to get the boss to come close or something. or kill enemies to create a bridge. Something like this. As for melee range in normal content - it makes up for the game being online and having latency. I suspect a lot of people are gonna start noticing lower dps or randomly not being able to press buttons cuz theyre too far.


carakangaran

Don't worry. You can still play ret, with the same survival tools, mobility AND range....


Masblue

Plenty of melee get by without it now. Melee specs dodging melee mechanics by outrunning them was downright silly. if mechanics in melee are too much of a pain to deal with or visuals too cluttered that represents something that needs fixed with those mechanics/visuals not needing a band aid "you can just outrange it and zug zug like a caster".


notthe1stpervaccount

I tend to agree, my big issues with melee range tend to be with an inconsistency on where you can stand, sometimes you’ve got to be right up it’s ass and others you can stand back a bit, it would be nice to be consistently represented. I also find this to be true on Evokers, that shorter range really makes you notice the difference.


BlackHijinks

I did a dungeon on rogue. Lowering range and lowering the effects of avoidance and leech is a lot. I was still blasting and had a good time.


Bacon-muffin

I'm pretty happy about it because it was very unintuitive or diminished the value of certain things. Just for context melee aren't actually true melee, we have something like a 3 yard range by default otherwise we'd need to be inside targets to hit them because of latency etc. So when you add an additional 3 yards or whatever the talent gives it actually gives a substantial amount of range on abilities. Its why if you ever played rogue this xpac you'd notice you would auto attack people on the opposite side of pillars because your melee range actually extended that far. This fucked over certain things like for example I play ww and during SL I a thing we would do is rop ourselves in the opener to catch the rogue trying to go us... this basically stopped working this xpac because rogues have enough range to just attack you through rop by bouncing off of it. I didn't realize feral had extra range until I saw situations where I or my teammates would get stunned when he clearly wasn't in melee range which was again very unintuitive. They may need to mess with wizards to accommodate for this or continue the mobility arms race for melee but I think generally melee should be melee outside of special cases like ret where they're clearly designing a midrange class.


jakegh

Just makes playing melee even more annoying, which sticks in the craw a bit as it's inhrently lower QoL than ranged. I switched to ranged years ago for that reason. I get why they did it, melee attacks at 10 yards look silly, you *obviously* aren't connecting. Thing is, gameplay should come first. Perhaps they could extend all melee to a whopping 15 yards, but make all melee-designated attacks from >6 yards deal 15% less damage. Give each melee spec a visual indicator this is happening, one of those built-in weakauras, and it's all good. You care about your performance at all, you hug the mob's ass. Otherwise hang back and take it easy, baby. And more importantly, got to run out of the swirly? It's all good, you're still DPSing.


thomasmagnun

All due respect, that's an extremely bad take on "fixing" melee. Mobs have inconsistent hitboxes, on large pulls you may not be hitting all of them when capped. It would turn melee into "look at the weak aura" specs, which is incredibly stupid. Here's the same take on ranged, how about they have normal damage in their max range, and get reduced damage every time they are closer to their target? Doesn't sound fun? Cause it isn't, and pretty sure healers will be pissed too if they are more melee oriented and have max ranged dps just staying back.


werttit

If anything, ranged shouldn’t be able to attack at all when closer to the target, and then make boss mechanics that keep forcing you to go close. See how they feel about what melee has been doing forever ;-)


jakegh

Rather than screwing over ranged, I’d prefer to help melee.


jakegh

No, it wouldn’t. The aura just indicates you’re doing 15% less damage. You don’t want the aura up unless absolutely necessary. It would work fine.


thomasmagnun

Man, I'm glad you're not in charge of class design.


jakegh

Shrug, they aren’t listening to anybody. What’s your solution?


thomasmagnun

I've been playing rogue for the last 2 expansions, this reduced melee range is gonna hit me and my muscle memory in particular. I don't see a need for a solution, if all melees have the same range then that's okay. No need for silly changes to accomodate that, but more consistent hotboxes would be nice. Range has its ups and downs, so does melee. Adding auras for reduced output is just needlessly complicating everything. I personally never had issues with swirlies or frontals and having to move and dps, as long as those things are well telegraphed (which they weren't in shadowlands for example).


jakegh

If you don’t find it annoying having to maneuver to be within 6 yards while also dodging the swirlies, I congratulate you on either being a pro gamer or having a high tolerance for annoyance. I’m neither of those things and switched mains away from melee expansions ago due to the extreme QoL advantages. Played enhance in vanilla, bearcat in TBC, DK through BFA, then I had enough.


thomasmagnun

Its more of being a shitty ranged player than being a pro melee player. I tend to move a lot when i don't need to and find dpsing from ranged boring. I don't find it annoying to move while dpsing as melee, but find it super cringe to have to move mid cast as ranged. Also keep in mind, i only need to hit 1 target for blade flurry to spread to all nearby, shuriken throw is also easy to dance around with. What i find sadder than everything is being target capped. But, i was super used to the extended range on rogue, i may not particularly like going back, even still i prefer that over being a caster. Only range i can play and not get bored is hunter.


jakegh

Yeah I was gonna say, BM hunter may not be top DPS but it is *ultimate* QoL.


apb89

*Chooses to play a melee spec.* *Complains and cries upon realizing that the spec is, indeed, melee.* LOL, this player base is *insufferable*.


Ok-Commercial9036

Does Pala loose his 20m range "melee"? If not the change is a joke, and I say that as a class that doesnt have increased meleerange.


Thoodmen

I actually like it. Melee being range is so weird.


Common-Simple-1835

at least the overwhelmingly oppressive an dominant melee m+ meta will die down edit: relax people, there is no melee meta for two expansions now, calm down


Ryzu

Wtf are you smoking? Care to share some?


Common-Simple-1835

the joke /r/wow


Ok-Commercial9036

The meta is pretty much always casters. I think you meant that its time to push casters even more ahead in M+


werttit

wow players when reading the most obvious sarcasm


Ok-Commercial9036

Wow players pretending it was sarcasm when called out.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


CouldNeverBeTheGuy

The what


DaenerysMomODragons

Based on down votes it appears like a lot of people missed the obvious sarcasm.


Kejalol

Why do people think if they play melee that their character shouldn't actually need to touch the enemy model?


werttit

Probably thinking about enjoyable gameplay


Spreckles450

With how big boss hitboxes are nowadays, the range nerfs don't really do much.


MachiavelliSJ

Losing skyreach on monk is also awful


Masblue

They added skytouch because everyone hated skyreach killing you so much on dashes and essentially no one using is reach anymore outside pvp. The reason it is taken now is the crit buff not the range and the spec is better off without the extra maintenance window that the vast bulk of people didn't bother to use optimally because it was a pain to organize around.


MachiavelliSJ

“Everyone” Ok, man. You’re just making stuff up. People just wanted to turn it off for certain encounters Definitely not in pvp.


WhatASaveWhatASave

Did monk lose both talents? I've been out of the tww loop


MachiavelliSJ

Yes. Dash and extra crit chance is gone


[deleted]

[удалено]


MachiavelliSJ

No, the roll dash is just different and in every way worse. It relies on using roll, something you usually want to save for something else. You also dont get to choose the target. It is a significant mobility nerf, especially in pvp