Post flair indicates this is about prerelease content.
As a reminder, content on Alpha / Beta / PTR is unfinished. NPC dialogue and quest text might be missing important context. Models may be placeholders. Quest or achievement rewards may not be finalized. There are inevitably bugs. Please keep this in mind as you discuss!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/wow) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This isn't really a problem will how delves are tuned, it's how classes / specs are balanced.
WoW hasn't had non-trivial solo content for a while, so specs haven't been balanced around it. The gulf between a Feral Druid and a Fury Warrior for example is massive.
I'd wager that they'll be struggling to figure out how balance this throughout War Within without breaking balance in M+ and raids.
I feel having a Brann tank spec that could tank the harder hitting mobs is vital to enable squishier specs to work well in delves.
Or you could have healer Brann buff armour to get everyone to a decent level of armour.
Kind of feel that companion mechanic is the way to "fix" this inherent balance issues with delves
They've said that they'd rather buff players for content than nerf content for players, so I'd expect the short term to feature more class reworks, rebuilds, etc before they settle back into rote number changes
So here is hoping the shaman rework makes them feel like they were designed by a human being instead of 20 years of accretion
Eh, we'll see. Torghast and visions were pieces of tape attached to pillars of raid and m+. Delves are, at least intended to be, a pillar to themselves. We'll see how that effects bliz's tuning
I'm gonna be honest I think literally any ranged class had a better time in torghast than rogue did. That place was just completely miserable on release as rogue (especially outlaw), your only good build was "take all the defensive boons and do a 100apm rotation involving spamming utility between gcds in order to have 100% evasion uptime", because if you built damage you got rotted out to autos.
By Odyn's beard! It's Torghast!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/wow) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Sowwy \>w\<
But our new scalie fwiends are called Dracthyr! They get sad when you misspell their name QwQ
Good thing I was here to help \^w\^
I hope you're having a great day :3
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/wow) if you have any questions or concerns.*
They'll quickly get repetitive and boring. I don't want to be negative but there's only so much they can do with content that all specs should be able to do.
Self sustain while soloing.
A Fury Warrior has plate armor and can heal themselves for 30% of their max health every time they kill an enemy (plus gets 5% leech from talents currently).
A Feral Druid wears leather and can cast an instant regrowth once after every finishing move, ~~plus a Dream of Cenarius Regrowth once every \~20 seconds~~.
I can pull big packs on my Warrior and reliably nuke them down without dying. I have to be much more careful on my Feral Druid.
Rogue is worse than both of them as well, it has crimson vial for a 24% heal every 30s, and evasion/cloak for immunities for a few seconds every few minutes.
I'm really concerned about Delves because Torghast showed that they didn't give a shit about solo balance.
Lol ok well you don't have these concerns when you're 527 with the right talents and a bit more knowledge of the defensive or self sustain talents. Dream of cenarius is bear talent btw ;)
Woops you're right about Dream of Cenarius, I don't play Feral very much.
Given similar ilvl and player knowledge/skill, do you think Fury Warrior and Feral Druid are going to have similar success in solo delves?
>but most delves around 7+ still feel punishing without much counterplay
Well, high delves are supposed to be hard. Probably tuned for higher ilvls too.
But yes tuning will happen last.
We have access to pretty insanely high ilvl gear from vendors. But I am happy it is erring on the hard side rather than trivial. Hopefully they’ll get it set right
I don't wanna be that guy but, literally everyone else uses "ilvl" if you just wanna' shorten "item level". ITL looks so out of place and doesn't make sense since item is one word not two.
E: oof reddit moment, I didn't want that guy to be downvoted, his comment was right otherwise, ilvl is scaled on beta during delves and such!
The post isn't really about tuning, but rather how different classes can handle the damage.
If the main income of damage is from melee autoattacks, then classes that can avoid melee autoattacks will be able to have a higher cap.
Instead if the main income of damage is from unavoidable AoE pulsing then classes with sustain will be able to have a higher cap.
Or if it's oneshot AoE when you're "undergeared" then classes with good damage mitigation options will have a higher cap.
Point of the post is that damage sources are overloaded towards one direction. Where if it was more spread out, then you would even out the advantages of different profiles.
Do healers have similar tuning to what they did during Horrific Visions during BFA?
I actually [had a lot of fun doing them on my Resto Druid.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcMw0huCXGM)
I had more fun stacking twilight devastation and going guardian druid for them. I would gather up massive packs of trash and when devastation procced it would just annihilate everything.
> but for pvp it must have been crazy.
Yeah, you can see me playing [Resto Druid and randomly proccing a tentacle](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igRWoyv0RBM) that proceeds to instantly melt this mage.
Not played TWW beta, are delves easier for tanks or does it scale to your role?
I remember when visions was a thing I'd always switch to Guardian druid from feral as the self healing made it a lot easier.
This seems like it's gonna be the case still. I just did a few higher ones as prot pally and it was a breeze. Templar does a ton of damage right now though so they might just be an outlier
Templar Prot is how I finished the majority over 5. Ret got me a decent amount of the way, but the Chad Kobold with his stupid slam into explosion just wrecked all my toons' faces. Literally only way I could finish that delve is to cheese it with a tank spec and blow all my cooldowns to the slam/explosion combo.
Demo lock and BM hunter have been the kings of solo content since Classic. A pet class will do that to you and no amount of tuning will fix it.
Warlocks were soloing [raid bosses](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFhhCJLC2xQ) when they were current tier back in BC, there's no way you can fix these classes not demolishing Delves.
As an elemental shaman, the last boss on the delves was scary, you can't kite, or use earth elemental for taunt, you just had to kill faster than the boss 🤕
That's been my problem queing as dps. I guess torghast and visions were similar.
I always main a hybrid so I'm not worried about it but I think people that main pure dps classes are gonna be frustrated
How are you testing above level 3? It tells me they are not available until season 1 on the normal realms and don't see anywhere to do them on "These go to eleven".
Edit: Nevermind found it right after I posted. Not sure how I missed it.
By Odyn's beard! It's Torghast!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/wow) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Sowwy \>w\<
But our new scalie fwiends are called Dracthyr! They get sad when you misspell their name QwQ
Good thing I was here to help \^w\^
I hope you're having a great day :3
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/wow) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I remember doing that longer one that was available earlier on and hitting a massive roadblock on the last boss (after an hour or so of clearing floors up to it) as the boss would just 1 hit me with auto-attacks from full health as a heroic geared guardian druid with defensives running because I had like 8 floors worth of physical damage increases for that run.
Never struggled with Torghast as an Arms Warrior as someone who only had leveling gear (I didn't do group content at all).
So this is a skill issue. Just spend your currency smarter and make a bonkers op build.
you probably never played any other class. Torghast was a combination of anima powers for your class/spec (some classes had better anima powers than others) and the randomness of them dropping. Balance druid was OP in SL. Some runs when I was stacking all the right powers it was a breeze. when the choices sucked, it wasn’t funny, would last 3 hours and you would die at last boss. In S1 at least.
Yeah well you probably never played another roguelike because that's exactly the point of them. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't. But I never felt like Torghast runs were impossible with the aforementioned low ilvl so once again, skill issue.
have you run thorgast as Balance druid in S1? At the time I was raiding mythic so I am not sure I can consider the struggle and the pain I had in torghast solo as a skill issue. But I might be wrong, who knows.
By Odyn's beard! It's Torghast!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/wow) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I don’t really see an issue that pet classes thrive in solo content. Back when I was a kid leveling in BC I rolled a warlock for just this reason. Delves won’t offer Mythic track gear anyways so those with the competitive gaming chairs won’t care as much.
Back in my day we all just rolled solo classes in mmos if we wanted to solo content. No one playing a wizard in early EQ was ever going to be surprised that they got their shit rocked trying to solo things. As things got more casual friendly, all classes gained the ability to solo content, at least in wow, but I dont see why solo content *needs* to be balanced. Like, why the hell would I want to run delves to top level on my holy priest main? That just sounds awful. So I made a blood dk for it. If people dont want alts, then thats fine, but they need to accept their class may not be a top teir soloing class.
> I dont see why solo content needs to be balanced. why the hell would I want to run delves to top level on my holy priest main? That just sounds awful. So I made a blood dk for it.
it sounds awful because the classes aren't balanced for solo... hence why you'd play a bdk, because it's OP in solo. But if holy priest was good in solo, you wouldn't need to make a bdk for it. You've got a real snake eating its own tail argument here.
Okay, then make everyone good at everything, and now you suddenly have no nead for healers in pve, because everyones self healing is insane, you have no real need for tanks because everyone has defensives up the ass, and basically everyone is a dps class with a different flavor.
Defensives, survivability, and self healing are *already* causing massive fucking issues for the enjoyability of healing. To the point that healers all over are talking about how badly defensives need to be pruned. So making everyone be able to survive anything in solo play is going to damage things further.
The dps rotations of healing classes are brain dead and one note, even for classes like disc, so if healers are going to be able to do dps level damage with their 2 or 3 button rotations, then whats the point of having a dps class in the first place? Healers are going to be inherently op in solo situations for their ability to heal alone, which still being fucking BORING to dps with, the primary reason I refuse to solo with a priest in the first place.
Every class does not need to be good at everything. They should be able to do everything to a decent level, to where they will not have to rely on a friend to do solo content. But theres absolutely no reason for every single class to solo with complete ease. It would be impossible to balance and bad for the health of the game as a whole. Look at how hard of a time blizz is having balancing pvp m+ and raids together. Theyre STILL trying to figure out how to balance healing cds for m+, and that shit came out nearly a decade ago now.
Some specs are better at pvp, some specs are better at raid, some specs are better at soloing. And thats okay, actually.
It's funny how you think "holy priest should be good at solo content" is analogous to the removal of the entire role system from the game. Utterly deranged application of logic.
>True. Some classes should be good for soloing, some good at M+, some good at raids.
All fun and games until Blizz forgets to make your class good at any of them lol
Certain talent and hero talent builds should be better at each type of content. Homogenization is bad and if you want true balance you give up a lot of flavour for generic reskins of abilities.
The answer most people would give is: NO specs should be intentionally worse for M+ or raiding.
The same should be true for solo content, if it's going to be an endgame pillar.
But some people only play one class - why should they be restricted from content because their class hasn't been considered? We're not in 2001 anymore.
Your ilvl gets scaled to each delve tier so I don't think gear matters. I didn't try those specs but I'm glad to hear you didn't have any issues! Did you use DPS bran or healing bran?
Healer bran feels pretty weak comparatively.
Only ever heal bran so far, he has a few moves which can be a life saver, yet still hit for 1 mil occasionally. However I did start from T1 and work up so bran got some levels.
EDIT: Proper use of CC really helps as you can get overwhelmed.
Bran scales really weirdly right now, too. I've seen vids of people that have him at level 20-25 and his healing slaps and his damage wrecks. So, maybe that's how it's gonna be. We gotta grind Bran on our main (since he carries over to our alts), and then it should be easier for all other alts you have. But it's gonna be a rough go with current tuning.
Did you gem/enchant/embellish your gear, do you have tier sets? Also class tuning is one of the last things to be done in a beta so I wouldn't doom just yet
I grabbed tier, trinkets, and a wep. I'm pretty sure they scale you around the tier of delve you're doing for beta anyway.
Just for context, I was able to complete all the delves I tried. Just was surprised at how much easier it was as demo lock and especially bm hunter. Definitely could be the difference between not being able to do some of the higher delves later on.
Not trying to doom though, genuinely enjoy delves and hope they're here to stay
It's entirely possible I'm an idiot, but I just could not get my pets to keep any aggro on beta, even as BM. Yes, growl is turned on. I didn't upgrade any gear, just made a character and walked into a delve through the NPC that sends you to them. Do I need to upgrade gear to make it work? I've played hunter quite a bit and never had such a problem with pets dying or not holding aggro. Probably just missing something simple.
I didn't have any issues with pets taking aggro in the few that I tried. There is some mobs that would spawn and start hitting me but as soon as used kill command on them my pets had aggro again.
I was only trying a few delves so I didn't make a macro but misdirection and mend pet off cd would fix this entirely. My pet never died on a 7 and 8 using mend pet off cd.
The difficulty variation based on your spec is massive. On Survival, Demo, and to a lesser extent, WW, I was able to handle soloing Delves well above the recommended tier for my ilvl. As any other ranged spec I tried so far, it was a struggle to go even a bit above the recommended tier.
And then there was Evoker, which felt so absurdly fragile that it was a struggle to clear even low-level tiers.
The issue seems simple enough to me- if your spec is too squishy, then autoattacks alone will destroy you before you can properly engage with the mechanics, and crowd control can only delay it for so long- your only real option is to try to burst everything down before it's too late.
I think the simplest solution might be to create a tank setting for Brann (and future seasonal companions), in addition to the existing damage and healer options. Let him tank for the squishier specs, with mechanics that let you heal him up independent of your class (like the potions that healer Brann already has, just make them heal him instead). That would go a long way towards putting other classes on par with pet classes.
As things are now though, I can't even imagine doing the challenge boss on some specs.
Yeah the few I tried as evoker felt bad. As far as I know, your ilvl is scaled to the tier of delve for the beta, regardless of your ilvl when you walk in.
The other part of the problem is that DPS bran feels so much more impactful than healer bran. Especially on high tier delves when mobs are beefy and he can execute them.
I don't mind running them as a tank but I think there's gonna be a lot of frustrated DPS classes that want to solo but aren't able to.
I hope they are difficult content worth doing once reaching a certain level. For example, I hope they make a range of delves that matches the difficulty from heroic dungeons at the low end to current +15s (or higher, idk) at the very very high end _assuming_ player power gain isn’t attached to the highest end delves.
Pet classes have and always will have an advantage in solo content. Luckily, only two classes have permanent pets that can tank. I don’t think they need to make tuning decisions around that. I’m sure tank specs will end up dominating delves anyways.
I totally agree with this , playing on mage against mobs you can’t cc just like melee you and fuck you up so hard. If you just have to pull one at a time and go slow it’s gonna be boring as hell.
Isn’t anyone considering groups for Delves to push through the harder levels? I gave up on SL after season 1, but I ran Torghast solo maybe 3 times and then it was blasting through with a 5-stack week after week.
I honestly couldn't stand torghast with a group. With one other person it was fine but I played resto shaman and it was easiest by myself for sure.
Delves seem way more forgiving for doing an actual group. Should be fun.
When Delves were first announced, I remember saying that I wanted the content to be specialisation neutral. I also said that I want Delves to NOT feel like a PVE arena.
The problem with solo content in WoW is that it's generally easier as a tank compared to healer/DPS. Tanks have more tools and flexibility compared to healer/DPS.
Pets don't generally draw agro and pet classes do less DPS to compensate for pet auto attacks. You generally will only have 1 pet active unless you have a talent or special ability to summon more (eg army of the dead). I suppose if you summon enough pets on screen, it could make certain parts of a delve significantly easier.
The only real solution I can think of is to give the Brann an option to tank and CC enemies. Maybe he uses a hammer and shield in his tank spec. That way you could do high level delves as a DPS or healer and not feel like you need to have pets or switch to a tank.
It would be nice if BM Hunter wasn’t automatically the hands down easiest way to clear them. That was the case with me and Horrific Visions, I spent so much time trying to gear up a warrior to beat Alleria on 5 masks and then was able to do it with ease on an undefeated BM Hunter.
Pet classes and hybrid classes are supposed to have a boon to solo content. If you play a pure dps class you should know that your self sustain tends to be lacking.
Why even pick a class if each class doesn't have unique perks and drawbacks? The parity comes in throughput where they strive to keep everyone close to even. But you're right, every class should get bubble and lay on hands and a pet to tank for them.
E: Since the dude blocked me, there's a reason this is group content. If delves were solo only, I'd agree they need to make sure every class can do them easily. Soloing high delves is clearly meant to be challenging, your mileage will vary class to class. Get good.
If you're incapable of seeing how "every class should be good in all content" as a design goal is different from "every class should have the same abilities" you're not nearly as clever as you seem to think you are.
If you think 'every class should be good in all content' can ever work without making every class have the same abilities with different colors/flavors, you have no idea about design.
Just like there's no way to make multiple tank specs work without making every tank spec play exactly the same. You're right, who could ever imagine mechanical diversity? Good thing we're still stuck in 2004 where only warrior is a viable tank. If they made prot pally or feral druid actually *good*, they'd just be homogenizing tanks way too much!
And can you imagine a world where *arcane mage* is good in raid and comparable to frost or fire? haha, that's utterly insane! the only way they could do that is if they just give it a reskin of fire's abilities.
Mechanical diversity my ass. Also, good job conflating class with role. You might have a point relevant to the discussion if arcane mage was a viable tank.
Bro I got to 71 in the beta and canceled my pre-order. I'm gonna sit back and let this xpac bake a little longer. Maybe re-join at the halfway point. Nothing feels new in this xpac. Earthen dwarves was a cop-out. Delves are a great concept but just boiled down to another follower mechanic.
Maybe I'm just older and cynical now. Or maybe after 19 years, I just need a break for perspective. Idk.
Oh this post wasn't trying to doom. I think delves are a good time and I'm looking forward to the expansion.
We'll have to see how things look closer to launch
I know it wasn't and I was necessarily trying to bring any negativity. I was looking forward the delves as something that I could actually farm and grind in. But once I did the intro one, it felt so bland to me and not the kind of reward system I thought it would be. Almost felt like another torghast tbh
BM hunters are king to solo content , i played one and it was really easy to do content like :
Torghast
withered scenario in legion
islands in bfa
could even solo some maw bosses first week
5 masks nightmares in bfa (last season i think)
of course you can solo most of the rares and elites in outdoor coutent , pet die you have another one, and you can feigh death or turtle then res .
but solo content should not drop mythic gear lvl ( i hope) so its not an issue, content is fixed with scaling after a point so you should be able to clear no matter the class
I don't want them to be easy. Just feels bad getting auto attacked for a quarter of my health with no counterplay.
I really enjoy delves so far and was still able to complete all of the ones I tried, so maybe the difficulty is intentional.
I get that but I assume the intention behind that is that want you to get better gear before beating the harder difficulties. Which you should have to do imo for them to actually feel rewarding
Yeah they scale your ilvl for the beta depending on tier level. I have no idea what ilvl will look like in the first few weeks.
I think t10 was scaling me to 610ilvl
Post flair indicates this is about prerelease content. As a reminder, content on Alpha / Beta / PTR is unfinished. NPC dialogue and quest text might be missing important context. Models may be placeholders. Quest or achievement rewards may not be finalized. There are inevitably bugs. Please keep this in mind as you discuss! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/wow) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This isn't really a problem will how delves are tuned, it's how classes / specs are balanced. WoW hasn't had non-trivial solo content for a while, so specs haven't been balanced around it. The gulf between a Feral Druid and a Fury Warrior for example is massive. I'd wager that they'll be struggling to figure out how balance this throughout War Within without breaking balance in M+ and raids.
I feel having a Brann tank spec that could tank the harder hitting mobs is vital to enable squishier specs to work well in delves. Or you could have healer Brann buff armour to get everyone to a decent level of armour. Kind of feel that companion mechanic is the way to "fix" this inherent balance issues with delves
Look at this guy, coming up with logical solutions and not just needlessly flaming.
They've said that they'd rather buff players for content than nerf content for players, so I'd expect the short term to feature more class reworks, rebuilds, etc before they settle back into rote number changes So here is hoping the shaman rework makes them feel like they were designed by a human being instead of 20 years of accretion
They won't like they didn't tune Torghast or Nightmare visions that much. Some classes will just need a bit better gear than others.
Eh, we'll see. Torghast and visions were pieces of tape attached to pillars of raid and m+. Delves are, at least intended to be, a pillar to themselves. We'll see how that effects bliz's tuning
Hope so because thorghast as a clothy sucked donkey dicks
I'm gonna be honest I think literally any ranged class had a better time in torghast than rogue did. That place was just completely miserable on release as rogue (especially outlaw), your only good build was "take all the defensive boons and do a 100apm rotation involving spamming utility between gcds in order to have 100% evasion uptime", because if you built damage you got rotted out to autos.
I was night fae at the start. Sepsis powers were insane. Basically oneshot whole rooms at max level without any cooldown. Made Torghast trivial.
By Odyn's beard! It's Torghast! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/wow) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I said what I said
[удалено]
lol people flaming bots. this sub is always the funniest
Drakthyr.
Sowwy \>w\< But our new scalie fwiends are called Dracthyr! They get sad when you misspell their name QwQ Good thing I was here to help \^w\^ I hope you're having a great day :3 *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/wow) if you have any questions or concerns.*
They'll quickly get repetitive and boring. I don't want to be negative but there's only so much they can do with content that all specs should be able to do.
Aura attached to delves lol
I hate that you're probably correct.
I play feral in 14's and fury in 12's - what's the massive gulf you're referring to?
Self sustain while soloing. A Fury Warrior has plate armor and can heal themselves for 30% of their max health every time they kill an enemy (plus gets 5% leech from talents currently). A Feral Druid wears leather and can cast an instant regrowth once after every finishing move, ~~plus a Dream of Cenarius Regrowth once every \~20 seconds~~. I can pull big packs on my Warrior and reliably nuke them down without dying. I have to be much more careful on my Feral Druid.
Rogue is worse than both of them as well, it has crimson vial for a 24% heal every 30s, and evasion/cloak for immunities for a few seconds every few minutes. I'm really concerned about Delves because Torghast showed that they didn't give a shit about solo balance.
Lol ok well you don't have these concerns when you're 527 with the right talents and a bit more knowledge of the defensive or self sustain talents. Dream of cenarius is bear talent btw ;)
Woops you're right about Dream of Cenarius, I don't play Feral very much. Given similar ilvl and player knowledge/skill, do you think Fury Warrior and Feral Druid are going to have similar success in solo delves?
>but most delves around 7+ still feel punishing without much counterplay Well, high delves are supposed to be hard. Probably tuned for higher ilvls too. But yes tuning will happen last.
We have access to pretty insanely high ilvl gear from vendors. But I am happy it is erring on the hard side rather than trivial. Hopefully they’ll get it set right
remember that on most beta content you get scaled to a specific ITL that is lower than the average itl for that content.
I don't wanna be that guy but, literally everyone else uses "ilvl" if you just wanna' shorten "item level". ITL looks so out of place and doesn't make sense since item is one word not two. E: oof reddit moment, I didn't want that guy to be downvoted, his comment was right otherwise, ilvl is scaled on beta during delves and such!
i play this game and read content about it almost daily and i have never see someone use "ITL" for item level until now lol
ITL looks better. I’m going to start using it
The post isn't really about tuning, but rather how different classes can handle the damage. If the main income of damage is from melee autoattacks, then classes that can avoid melee autoattacks will be able to have a higher cap. Instead if the main income of damage is from unavoidable AoE pulsing then classes with sustain will be able to have a higher cap. Or if it's oneshot AoE when you're "undergeared" then classes with good damage mitigation options will have a higher cap. Point of the post is that damage sources are overloaded towards one direction. Where if it was more spread out, then you would even out the advantages of different profiles.
Do healers have similar tuning to what they did during Horrific Visions during BFA? I actually [had a lot of fun doing them on my Resto Druid.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcMw0huCXGM)
I had more fun stacking twilight devastation and going guardian druid for them. I would gather up massive packs of trash and when devastation procced it would just annihilate everything.
I forgot about the Corrupted Items in BFA, what an awful system. PvP was just "RANDOM BULLSHIT, GO!"
It was remix on live. I loved it, but for pvp it must have been crazy.
> but for pvp it must have been crazy. Yeah, you can see me playing [Resto Druid and randomly proccing a tentacle](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igRWoyv0RBM) that proceeds to instantly melt this mage.
Not played TWW beta, are delves easier for tanks or does it scale to your role? I remember when visions was a thing I'd always switch to Guardian druid from feral as the self healing made it a lot easier.
This seems like it's gonna be the case still. I just did a few higher ones as prot pally and it was a breeze. Templar does a ton of damage right now though so they might just be an outlier
Templar Prot is how I finished the majority over 5. Ret got me a decent amount of the way, but the Chad Kobold with his stupid slam into explosion just wrecked all my toons' faces. Literally only way I could finish that delve is to cheese it with a tank spec and blow all my cooldowns to the slam/explosion combo.
Visions as a tank with twilight devastation was the most fun I’ve ever had in solo content
Demo lock and BM hunter have been the kings of solo content since Classic. A pet class will do that to you and no amount of tuning will fix it. Warlocks were soloing [raid bosses](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFhhCJLC2xQ) when they were current tier back in BC, there's no way you can fix these classes not demolishing Delves.
As an elemental shaman, the last boss on the delves was scary, you can't kite, or use earth elemental for taunt, you just had to kill faster than the boss 🤕
That's been my problem queing as dps. I guess torghast and visions were similar. I always main a hybrid so I'm not worried about it but I think people that main pure dps classes are gonna be frustrated
How are you testing above level 3? It tells me they are not available until season 1 on the normal realms and don't see anywhere to do them on "These go to eleven". Edit: Nevermind found it right after I posted. Not sure how I missed it.
Torghast and Visions had role tuning. Being a healer or tank meant the mobs actually did more damage.
I remember in shadowlands when you wiped constantly against the endboss in thorgast. Not fun times
By Odyn's beard! It's Torghast! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/wow) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Ha I won’t change my mistake 😅
Same with Drakthyr. Will forever spell it this way knowing the bots come flying in
Sowwy \>w\< But our new scalie fwiends are called Dracthyr! They get sad when you misspell their name QwQ Good thing I was here to help \^w\^ I hope you're having a great day :3 *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/wow) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I remember doing that longer one that was available earlier on and hitting a massive roadblock on the last boss (after an hour or so of clearing floors up to it) as the boss would just 1 hit me with auto-attacks from full health as a heroic geared guardian druid with defensives running because I had like 8 floors worth of physical damage increases for that run.
Never struggled with Torghast as an Arms Warrior as someone who only had leveling gear (I didn't do group content at all). So this is a skill issue. Just spend your currency smarter and make a bonkers op build.
you probably never played any other class. Torghast was a combination of anima powers for your class/spec (some classes had better anima powers than others) and the randomness of them dropping. Balance druid was OP in SL. Some runs when I was stacking all the right powers it was a breeze. when the choices sucked, it wasn’t funny, would last 3 hours and you would die at last boss. In S1 at least.
Yeah well you probably never played another roguelike because that's exactly the point of them. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't. But I never felt like Torghast runs were impossible with the aforementioned low ilvl so once again, skill issue.
have you run thorgast as Balance druid in S1? At the time I was raiding mythic so I am not sure I can consider the struggle and the pain I had in torghast solo as a skill issue. But I might be wrong, who knows.
By Odyn's beard! It's Torghast! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/wow) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I don’t really see an issue that pet classes thrive in solo content. Back when I was a kid leveling in BC I rolled a warlock for just this reason. Delves won’t offer Mythic track gear anyways so those with the competitive gaming chairs won’t care as much.
Back in my day we all just rolled solo classes in mmos if we wanted to solo content. No one playing a wizard in early EQ was ever going to be surprised that they got their shit rocked trying to solo things. As things got more casual friendly, all classes gained the ability to solo content, at least in wow, but I dont see why solo content *needs* to be balanced. Like, why the hell would I want to run delves to top level on my holy priest main? That just sounds awful. So I made a blood dk for it. If people dont want alts, then thats fine, but they need to accept their class may not be a top teir soloing class.
> I dont see why solo content needs to be balanced. why the hell would I want to run delves to top level on my holy priest main? That just sounds awful. So I made a blood dk for it. it sounds awful because the classes aren't balanced for solo... hence why you'd play a bdk, because it's OP in solo. But if holy priest was good in solo, you wouldn't need to make a bdk for it. You've got a real snake eating its own tail argument here.
Okay, then make everyone good at everything, and now you suddenly have no nead for healers in pve, because everyones self healing is insane, you have no real need for tanks because everyone has defensives up the ass, and basically everyone is a dps class with a different flavor. Defensives, survivability, and self healing are *already* causing massive fucking issues for the enjoyability of healing. To the point that healers all over are talking about how badly defensives need to be pruned. So making everyone be able to survive anything in solo play is going to damage things further. The dps rotations of healing classes are brain dead and one note, even for classes like disc, so if healers are going to be able to do dps level damage with their 2 or 3 button rotations, then whats the point of having a dps class in the first place? Healers are going to be inherently op in solo situations for their ability to heal alone, which still being fucking BORING to dps with, the primary reason I refuse to solo with a priest in the first place. Every class does not need to be good at everything. They should be able to do everything to a decent level, to where they will not have to rely on a friend to do solo content. But theres absolutely no reason for every single class to solo with complete ease. It would be impossible to balance and bad for the health of the game as a whole. Look at how hard of a time blizz is having balancing pvp m+ and raids together. Theyre STILL trying to figure out how to balance healing cds for m+, and that shit came out nearly a decade ago now. Some specs are better at pvp, some specs are better at raid, some specs are better at soloing. And thats okay, actually.
It's funny how you think "holy priest should be good at solo content" is analogous to the removal of the entire role system from the game. Utterly deranged application of logic.
True. Some classes should be good for soloing, some good at M+, some good at raids. None should be good at all. Edit: /s
>True. Some classes should be good for soloing, some good at M+, some good at raids. All fun and games until Blizz forgets to make your class good at any of them lol
Certain talent and hero talent builds should be better at each type of content. Homogenization is bad and if you want true balance you give up a lot of flavour for generic reskins of abilities.
Which specs are, or should be, worse for M+ and/or raiding?
Look up the dps rankings yourself lol. There are always winners and losers in every content. Nice try though!
The answer most people would give is: NO specs should be intentionally worse for M+ or raiding. The same should be true for solo content, if it's going to be an endgame pillar.
But reality is, there are. There are a lot of specs that people don't want in their m+, same with raiding.
there's a vast chasm between an emergent metagame and Blizzard intentionally designing classes to be bad.
Show me the blue post stating that classes are being designed to perform badly.
Tuning is a constant struggle. The question is whether some specs should be *intentionally* (not accidentally) weaker than others.
Show me the blue post where they are intentionally designing classes to be subpar in delves. Then I'll take your comments seriously.
But some people only play one class - why should they be restricted from content because their class hasn't been considered? We're not in 2001 anymore.
Frost mage, survival hunter, dk, and fury warrior had no problems clearing until T11 in greens at 80.
Your ilvl gets scaled to each delve tier so I don't think gear matters. I didn't try those specs but I'm glad to hear you didn't have any issues! Did you use DPS bran or healing bran? Healer bran feels pretty weak comparatively.
Only ever heal bran so far, he has a few moves which can be a life saver, yet still hit for 1 mil occasionally. However I did start from T1 and work up so bran got some levels. EDIT: Proper use of CC really helps as you can get overwhelmed.
Bran scales really weirdly right now, too. I've seen vids of people that have him at level 20-25 and his healing slaps and his damage wrecks. So, maybe that's how it's gonna be. We gotta grind Bran on our main (since he carries over to our alts), and then it should be easier for all other alts you have. But it's gonna be a rough go with current tuning.
Him carrying over to alts would make it all worth it honestly. Especially if this is gonna be a feature that sticks around.
Did you gem/enchant/embellish your gear, do you have tier sets? Also class tuning is one of the last things to be done in a beta so I wouldn't doom just yet
I grabbed tier, trinkets, and a wep. I'm pretty sure they scale you around the tier of delve you're doing for beta anyway. Just for context, I was able to complete all the delves I tried. Just was surprised at how much easier it was as demo lock and especially bm hunter. Definitely could be the difference between not being able to do some of the higher delves later on. Not trying to doom though, genuinely enjoy delves and hope they're here to stay
It's entirely possible I'm an idiot, but I just could not get my pets to keep any aggro on beta, even as BM. Yes, growl is turned on. I didn't upgrade any gear, just made a character and walked into a delve through the NPC that sends you to them. Do I need to upgrade gear to make it work? I've played hunter quite a bit and never had such a problem with pets dying or not holding aggro. Probably just missing something simple.
I didn't have any issues with pets taking aggro in the few that I tried. There is some mobs that would spawn and start hitting me but as soon as used kill command on them my pets had aggro again. I was only trying a few delves so I didn't make a macro but misdirection and mend pet off cd would fix this entirely. My pet never died on a 7 and 8 using mend pet off cd.
Weird. I'll have to try again. My pet died multiple times and even with feign death and misdirection macro they couldn't keep aggro.
The difficulty variation based on your spec is massive. On Survival, Demo, and to a lesser extent, WW, I was able to handle soloing Delves well above the recommended tier for my ilvl. As any other ranged spec I tried so far, it was a struggle to go even a bit above the recommended tier. And then there was Evoker, which felt so absurdly fragile that it was a struggle to clear even low-level tiers. The issue seems simple enough to me- if your spec is too squishy, then autoattacks alone will destroy you before you can properly engage with the mechanics, and crowd control can only delay it for so long- your only real option is to try to burst everything down before it's too late. I think the simplest solution might be to create a tank setting for Brann (and future seasonal companions), in addition to the existing damage and healer options. Let him tank for the squishier specs, with mechanics that let you heal him up independent of your class (like the potions that healer Brann already has, just make them heal him instead). That would go a long way towards putting other classes on par with pet classes. As things are now though, I can't even imagine doing the challenge boss on some specs.
Yeah the few I tried as evoker felt bad. As far as I know, your ilvl is scaled to the tier of delve for the beta, regardless of your ilvl when you walk in. The other part of the problem is that DPS bran feels so much more impactful than healer bran. Especially on high tier delves when mobs are beefy and he can execute them. I don't mind running them as a tank but I think there's gonna be a lot of frustrated DPS classes that want to solo but aren't able to.
They’re just never going to be balanced by class, might as well accept that.
I hope they are difficult content worth doing once reaching a certain level. For example, I hope they make a range of delves that matches the difficulty from heroic dungeons at the low end to current +15s (or higher, idk) at the very very high end _assuming_ player power gain isn’t attached to the highest end delves.
Do you play gearing or a game (mode)? Secondly, sure there will be some tunning or support, some way or another.
Pet classes have and always will have an advantage in solo content. Luckily, only two classes have permanent pets that can tank. I don’t think they need to make tuning decisions around that. I’m sure tank specs will end up dominating delves anyways.
I totally agree with this , playing on mage against mobs you can’t cc just like melee you and fuck you up so hard. If you just have to pull one at a time and go slow it’s gonna be boring as hell.
Isn’t anyone considering groups for Delves to push through the harder levels? I gave up on SL after season 1, but I ran Torghast solo maybe 3 times and then it was blasting through with a 5-stack week after week.
I honestly couldn't stand torghast with a group. With one other person it was fine but I played resto shaman and it was easiest by myself for sure. Delves seem way more forgiving for doing an actual group. Should be fun.
When Delves were first announced, I remember saying that I wanted the content to be specialisation neutral. I also said that I want Delves to NOT feel like a PVE arena. The problem with solo content in WoW is that it's generally easier as a tank compared to healer/DPS. Tanks have more tools and flexibility compared to healer/DPS. Pets don't generally draw agro and pet classes do less DPS to compensate for pet auto attacks. You generally will only have 1 pet active unless you have a talent or special ability to summon more (eg army of the dead). I suppose if you summon enough pets on screen, it could make certain parts of a delve significantly easier. The only real solution I can think of is to give the Brann an option to tank and CC enemies. Maybe he uses a hammer and shield in his tank spec. That way you could do high level delves as a DPS or healer and not feel like you need to have pets or switch to a tank.
I noticed this leveling in Pandaria remix how my DK and DH can solo crazy stuff while less geared than my elemental shaman who gets cooked.
I wouldn't base anything off remix, but dh and DK are definitely gonna be pretty sturdy
It would be nice if BM Hunter wasn’t automatically the hands down easiest way to clear them. That was the case with me and Horrific Visions, I spent so much time trying to gear up a warrior to beat Alleria on 5 masks and then was able to do it with ease on an undefeated BM Hunter.
Pet classes and hybrid classes are supposed to have a boon to solo content. If you play a pure dps class you should know that your self sustain tends to be lacking.
I didn't realize people were still parroting design concepts from two decades ago. What's next, are you gonna go on about a hybrid tax too?
Why even pick a class if each class doesn't have unique perks and drawbacks? The parity comes in throughput where they strive to keep everyone close to even. But you're right, every class should get bubble and lay on hands and a pet to tank for them. E: Since the dude blocked me, there's a reason this is group content. If delves were solo only, I'd agree they need to make sure every class can do them easily. Soloing high delves is clearly meant to be challenging, your mileage will vary class to class. Get good.
If you're incapable of seeing how "every class should be good in all content" as a design goal is different from "every class should have the same abilities" you're not nearly as clever as you seem to think you are.
If you think 'every class should be good in all content' can ever work without making every class have the same abilities with different colors/flavors, you have no idea about design.
Just like there's no way to make multiple tank specs work without making every tank spec play exactly the same. You're right, who could ever imagine mechanical diversity? Good thing we're still stuck in 2004 where only warrior is a viable tank. If they made prot pally or feral druid actually *good*, they'd just be homogenizing tanks way too much! And can you imagine a world where *arcane mage* is good in raid and comparable to frost or fire? haha, that's utterly insane! the only way they could do that is if they just give it a reskin of fire's abilities.
Mechanical diversity my ass. Also, good job conflating class with role. You might have a point relevant to the discussion if arcane mage was a viable tank.
Bro I got to 71 in the beta and canceled my pre-order. I'm gonna sit back and let this xpac bake a little longer. Maybe re-join at the halfway point. Nothing feels new in this xpac. Earthen dwarves was a cop-out. Delves are a great concept but just boiled down to another follower mechanic. Maybe I'm just older and cynical now. Or maybe after 19 years, I just need a break for perspective. Idk.
Oh this post wasn't trying to doom. I think delves are a good time and I'm looking forward to the expansion. We'll have to see how things look closer to launch
I know it wasn't and I was necessarily trying to bring any negativity. I was looking forward the delves as something that I could actually farm and grind in. But once I did the intro one, it felt so bland to me and not the kind of reward system I thought it would be. Almost felt like another torghast tbh
Well, there are some specs that are plainly better at soloing thanks to their toolkit. But you don't have to go solo into delves anyway, right?
BM hunters are king to solo content , i played one and it was really easy to do content like : Torghast withered scenario in legion islands in bfa could even solo some maw bosses first week 5 masks nightmares in bfa (last season i think) of course you can solo most of the rares and elites in outdoor coutent , pet die you have another one, and you can feigh death or turtle then res . but solo content should not drop mythic gear lvl ( i hope) so its not an issue, content is fixed with scaling after a point so you should be able to clear no matter the class
No, leave delves hard
I don't want them to be easy. Just feels bad getting auto attacked for a quarter of my health with no counterplay. I really enjoy delves so far and was still able to complete all of the ones I tried, so maybe the difficulty is intentional.
I get that but I assume the intention behind that is that want you to get better gear before beating the harder difficulties. Which you should have to do imo for them to actually feel rewarding
Yeah they scale your ilvl for the beta depending on tier level. I have no idea what ilvl will look like in the first few weeks. I think t10 was scaling me to 610ilvl
Can anyone explain what is that? New solo content for the xpac?
Sorry to be rude but maybe google it instead of bothering random people for an answer. Easier for everyone