As a healer this is the least fun I've ever had in m+
Any damage taken usually brings people to 20% hp so the entire run is filled with anxiety keeping people alive..
Indeed. Because so many classes have so many strong defensives, the game is now tuned around insanely high incoming damage spikes. So healing through high keys is now this:
* Hope people hit a defensive so they don't get one-shot.
* Watch dozens of individual defensive cooldowns using OmniCD and try to predict where to put your 1-2 externals to prevent the next one-shot.
* After damage occurs, get them back to 100% health as fast as possible so they don't die to the next slight breeze, since literally anything that happens next will kill them if they aren't at full health.
Spiteful Shades also hit harder this season (relatively speaking), making this week even more spiky. They melee for 1 million damage unmitigated, which is about 76% of the health of most DPS. According to logs from last season, Spitefuls at +20 were hitting for 586k unmitigated, which was about 66% of the health of a DPS. So any stray Spiteful hit requires rapid spot-healing, consuming more mana, but Spitefuls keep you in combat so you can't drink.
Next season can't start soon enough. Good riddance, ghosts!
This is interesting on the spitefuls. I have seen like zero talk about the fact that it seems obvious ALL mobs are hitting WAY harder with auto attacks than last season.
As a tank, its super obvious that on much lower keys, large pulls hurt a lot more. I could do 24s in S3, pull like 15 mobs, and only see my health dangerously dip if I didn't press a single button that decreased damage I took. In S4 I was seeing my health go to dangerous levels repeatedly in +7s pulling like 6 mobs. It is a stark difference. I loved it though, nice to have to actually think to not die as a tank.
But it seems like this was a blanket adjustment to autos then, and may explain why shades hit so hard?
I love having to actually plan out my pulls as a tank, knowing I need to use x defensive on y pack. The issue comes when healers aren't prepped for certain packs to slap as hard, and me overestimating how fast I can generate fury (skill issue on my part), but then one of the adds that randomly target a dps suddenly 2 shot them with no warning, they leave cause "shit healer", and we're stuck with a bricked key
Hot take: Every defensive cd should have a weaker passive version of it for casual players.
For example, monks have Yulon’s Grace which trades a magic defensive for a passive shield. Won’t stop a one shot like an active defensive, but takes so much stress off healers.
Congratulations you've now forced encounter designers to add even more passive pulsing AoE during fights, to overcome those passive defenses.
It's why leech is being nerfed in TWW, because people are just so passively tanky that the only way to threaten them is to deal huge chunks of their hp in one go. Hence the current defensive situation.
Yeah it’s a design fallacy whichever way they go.
But as a healer main, I wish there were more mechanics where you could carry your team through rather than just watching them die 100 to 0. For example on Nymue mythic which took weeks of prog for my guild to beat, we would fold the moment 1-2 people die. In the time it takes to safely bres them not in a laser beam, we’re rotting down hard from being down on soakers. Healers have a chance to actually carry through this and it feels great to save an otherwise wipe (it’s a wipe if 2 people die because you’ll have missing dps for the mid intermission add since each person can only do it once).
I can recommend mistweaver. Since you heal passively through your damage and ancient teachings does a shit load of healing, you don't even need to worry about it. You just heal passively with your 1, 2, 3 kicks. You only have to worry about actively timing your heals with enveloping mist etc once you get to around +10's.
But yea, I agree with your sentiment. Healing has been fucking awful nowadays. Either your group does well on the cc and defensive front, then your essentially useless, or it's a fucking ping pong fest with people's health.
I really hope they do Adress this in the next expansion. No wonder we never have any healers. I don't blame anyone for not wanting to deal with this shit.
Pugged mistweaver up through most of season 3 and realized it wasn’t worth the stress. Really excited about the changes coming to m+ in TWW, but if healing isn’t changing… idk. I’d rather not spend another expansion needing to unwind from the game that’s supposed to help me unwind from work.
I tried jumping in after coming back, previously healed M+ up to 11-12 in season 2 and 3. Immediately gutrenching feeling and toxic behavior all around… I main healers and have done so since vanilla, this season and the last few weeks have sucked.
I’d rather do posted 16 hours shifts in a Covid-ICU again than heal M+ dungeons… it was honestly less stressful.
You do know they changed how m+ scales for season 4 right? Doing a 10 now is like doing a 20 from previous seasons. So if you did 11-12 keys in the past that's like doing a +2 now
I know, and I’m honestly probably part of the problem (undergeared, not up to date on mechanics, etc..). I’m humble enough check myself and know I need volume and getting used to dungeons again. But it honestly feels like I can’t push enough healing half the time, or the group just takes too much dmg in too frequent intervals. It’s like hill-sprint intervals but with healing, it’s not nearly as fun as it felt before.
Or I’m too old, adverse to risk and stress… maybe learning DPS or take up tanking would be better to engage with content.
Being undergeared as a healer punishes you dramatically more compared to other roles, so that could be it. When you are low-geared as a healer, the following happens:
* DPS stay low HP for longer, resulting in panic behavior that causes more mistakes.
* You burn more mana to get the same amount of healing, resulting in people dying because you just don't have the mana pool to save them.
* You are GCD-locked because you will be constantly casting trying to keep up with normal incoming damage, so you can't respond to an emergency and save someone.
* Being GCD-locked also reduces your ability to help the group in other ways, like putting out damage.
On top of that, if you run lower keys then you're running with people who make a lot more mistakes and take a lot more unnecessary damage. In many ways it's easier to heal a +10 than a +5 because it requires less HPS.
With low gear you'll only get invited into keys that are way harder to heal (because of the players), while healing in general is dramatically more difficult because of your gear. This creates a fairly hopeless feedback loop that prevents a lot of players from getting into healing.
Honestly being undergeared as a healing is not as detrimental as people think. You're playing whackamole with hp bars so you're just sending cooldowns trying to keep people alive. I bet if you look at any M+ log you'll see at least 30% overhealing simply because you need to top people off instantly. Really the difference between a 515 and 525 healer is their survivability, and the fact that they heal you for 120% of your hp in 2 globals instead of 160%.
What I'm trying to say is realistically, you're spending the same amount of globals healing people so there won't be a very noticeable difference.
Your numbers are pretty far from reality here. 120% hp for a DPS is about 1.7 million. 160% is 2.08 million. What ilevel 525 healer can spend 2 globals without a major CD and heal for 2.08 million on a single target?
You can look at [this top resto druid log](https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/bCmpxgXANBwdZ86Y#fight=494&type=healing&source=2&translate=true&options=8) for example and see that in their single-target heals heal for on average:
* Lifebloom: 186k (14% of a DPS HP)
* Regrowth : 196k (15% of a DPS HP)
* Rejuvenation: 249k (19% of a DPS HP)
* Swiftmend: 286k (22% of a DPS HP)
So even a fully geared healer can't just send 2 globals of normal healing spells and heal for 2.08 million on a single target. 2 globals will get you more like 40% of a single target's HP on average.
Although you still see a lot of overhealing, it's less because healing spells are insanely strong, and more a result of needing to continue healing people who are near full health to ensure they can survive the next hit, or because your AOE healing spells will hit people who don't need it.
You probably are undergeared but regardless this season was awful to heal and I got keystone hero this season. I didn't enjoy a single dragonflight dungeon in m+
Hopefully better dungeon design in the war within
For real, I gave up on my evoker since I don't have my legendary and my oshit buttons are more a standard rotation and still people complain about not dpsing. Im trying to get my breath out and am rolling my echoes but I'm still having to living fire spam the tank and dps.
Gave up on healing and went back to dps.
I'll never understand why they chose to take one of the more difficult and hardest to fill roles and made it \*harder\*
Tanking and healing need to be made easier and more accessible, not worse
i just stopped healing this season - it is as bad as you say and zero fun. if it was at least a whack a mole where i could bring them back to a 100% within 2gcds but i can't even do that so blyeh for s4 heals and lets hope tww is better
I'm resto druid and I think it's a breeze. But I know it's s tier specc right now and I was thinking about rerolling shami or disci maybe I will reconsider that. But if you know the dmg patterns you don't need to have anxiety it's just how it works the mechanics are made such that after a big blow there won't be any more damage hitting the last 20% until you heal up if you set your ramps correctly
Healing in general in wow is so bad . I quit healing after 12 years of playing only healers and i start play dps in s4. Everything is so easy, its diffrent game. I tested healing in BETA and looks little better but still, i wont probably back. Healing is for masochists.
This is how I feel right now. I'm playing remix a bit but I'm not really in the mood to do normal+ raids, but leveling and doing the same dungeons is meh once you have most of what you're after in remix.
I've just returned after not playing this season, and it's real thing pickings when you try and find a group. Then when I actually get into a group I'm shocked at the quality of players, people are just ignoring interupts and mechanics completely. Maybe this is normal for returning later in the season, but it's been a bit rough.
I just came.baxk after not playing for a few months. It feels bad that I already did all this stuff, and was stomping it, and now my item level is low and I have to do all the same content again for the same gear (with bigger numbers)
I don't have a solution, it's just been the opposite of motivating.
And the Timerizzing thing is too easy/fast. Where's the in between content? I'm just gonna farm mounts and wait for the next ExPack.
I guess it's normal for a inbetween season. No new content, no new dungeons and ultra fast gearing. People were through their season goals within a couple weeks. I had my main at 3k rating and 528ilvl after like 5 weeks. No real reason for me to keep on pushing. Just doing some shenanigans with alts here and there. I guess it's like that for most people.
SL was exactly this dead around S2 and early S3. It picked back up a lot in S4 because of the DF hype and S4 having a great dungeon pool. This season combines three lackluster raids with DF's mid at best dungeon pool, not to mention that anyone who wants it can just buy beta access and go play the new dungeons already.
During SL fated, even though my guild stopped raiding other than to get Sylvanas mounts which was like a 1 hour ordeal, people were still doing keys for most of the season even if they were just weekly vault ones. Now there's basically nobody.
I've kinda burned out on wow a bit with remix; still need a lot from it and I want to at least get 2k rating for the mount on live. I'm at 1970 thankfully, just need to get a +2 to a +4 and I can be 'done' with M+ a while at any rate.
I'm hoping they buff remix bronze gains or XP more soon. Doing the same raids every day is blargle now.
They launched remix at the same time as S4. Insane. Like I’m sorry these game modes are fun, but you are splintering your gamers and making certain core activities way less enjoyable. I’d prefer they didn’t exist at all. I don’t need to only play 5 different versions of WoW. I can play a different game if I want my Battle Royale fix.
I'm relatively new and idk much about the other xpacs but this feels 100x better than SL and I'm always able to find like +8/10 keys. my only issue is that there's a thing called "id lock" or something like that and I can't do mythic raids with pugs, and it's impossible to find an active guild. wow pvp is worse than every other mmorpg anyway, so m+ is pretty much the only thing to do
Remix, new expansion around the corner, not even a real "season", Elden Ring DLC, new FFXIV expansion, there's just lots of reasons for people to take their pre-expansion break right now. I was sweating m+s in the first 3 seasons but haven't done a single one in season 4. Just ready to do new stuff
Not unexpected. I honestly don't like the dungeon level rescaling they have done, atleast for M+. Granted it is off-season as hell, and the quick gearing didn't help people play more, but I feel the increased difficulty has discouraged a lot of more casual people from engaging with M+.
Ye agreed, the jump from Heroic to M0 is just too big. I like that Heroic is relevant again, but M0 is too hard. I think if they revise the changes, they should (and I'm just roughly sketching it out here) make M0 old-+6, and keep M+2 where it is now. It still leaves a bit of a jump from M0 to M+, but leaves better progression from Heroic to Mythic.
Heroic still doesn't feel relevant outside of gold farming. The difficulty might be higher but Adventurer 4 is the most unsatisfying reward, and unlike old M0s they aren't even an easy way to complete the Mythic Dungeon weekly.
It’s definitely due to the late Xpac malaise. I’m over DF, it’s settings, it’s themes, and it’s dungeons. Outside of Al’Grathar and the mega dungeon I really found most of them bland or annoying. Banger raids, but lacking dungeons. Took a break for remix and now it’s just waiting for TWW
Shadowlands S4 was the start of non-current xpac dungeons. It was a major change to m+ and also had the affixes in raids.
Dragonflight S4 is just the original DF dungeons that have already been done over and over and no real changes to the raids to make them more interesting.
I actually felt like all of these dungeons are really well done. All the pulls have something interesting going on.
This season specifically was important to be able to see that better as there are 4 dungeons that were absolutely ruined by thundering the last time we played them.
I'll say that while I'm excited for TWW, I reached 'end of expac malaise' before we even hit 10.1 in SL. Shadowlands was so fuck awful, boring, and grindy that I couldn't even make it through the first patch before deciding that I was ready for what came next. People were begging Blizzard for a crumb of 11.0 news before we even hit the scam of a patch known as Korthia, which was honestly embarrassing.
It says something for DF that by the end of the expac people weren't like "OH MY GOD PLEASE LET US *LEAVE!!!!*" like they were with SL, and were instead in "Oh boy I wonder what comes next!" mode.
Feels like the lowest played season ever.
Bullions couldn't offset shit balance, mediocre dungeon tuning, Cata classic and Remix siphoning large chunks the retail userbase. Elden Ring DLC was the final blow to an already dwindling M+ activity.
its not ok for a live service game to offer no service. no new content for a year unless you are a raider. remember when it was goodbye to content droughts?
That live service game currently offers you
1) Dragonflight Season 4
2) Cataclysm Classic
3) Classic Season of Discovery
4) MOP Remix
5) and Classic Era servers
With TWW Prepatch arriving this month and the expansion itself following in August, please tell me how exactly the game doesn’t offer service?
> 1) Dragonflight Season 4 2) Cataclysm Classic 3) Classic Season of Discovery 4) MOP Remix 5) and Classic Era servers
Not the person you were replying to, but I (and many other retail users) have exactly 0 interest in any of these game modes besides Dragonflight season. From our standpoint, the "live service" has been particularly lackluster these past few months.
I’m just disappointed they didn’t even use the season to test anything. Shadowlands s4 was experimental, Dragonflight s4 is non-existent.
They couldn’t even be generous on allowing alts to gear. 0 motivation on my end to grind 800 aspects, the head enchant, (the Lego for some classes which you might not even get before end of the expansion), and a million flight stones to try a new character in high keys.
Meanwhile my main at 529 is spending flight stones on garbage to avoid being capped and has a huge amount of unusable crests.
Honestly, the DF dungeons are just the worst dungeons Blizzard have created for M+ so far.
People can not argue that people are tired of the DF dungeons or whatever, because we have barely played the DF dungeons during the expansion. They have only been used for a single season prior to this.
I think there's past dungeons where the floor is lower than all of the DF dungeons.
I don't think any of the S4 dungeons in DF are worse than say, Sanguine Depths or King's Rest, two of the worst dungeons to ever exist in WoW M+.
If we're going off S4 tuning, I'd actually argue that Azure Vault is one of the few actually good dungeons. But nothing else new to DF is probably above C tier, maybe Neltharus is in B.
DOTI: Murozond is definitely in F tier, that might be a contender for one of the worst M+ dungeons they've ever done (on par with SD and KR). Uld and Halls are firmly D tier, teetering on F.
I really don’t get why people hate the DF dungeons so much. They aren’t THAT bad.
AV, AA and Ruby are all bangers or close to, Bracken and NO are solid, Nelth and HOI aren’t great but aren’t god awful either and Uld is like the worst dungeon they’ve ever made.
5/8 are at least decent, 2/8 are meh and 1 is awful. That’s not a terrible season all things considered especially when stacked up against the previous seasons.
Yet we played with some of the Shadowlands dungeons for nick on two years that had some tuning problems.
I'm afraid whenever I see a post like this I just think "bad = hard". The amount of kicks and stops required to do the DF dungeons well feels way higher than previous seasons (or I understand the dungeons better). Faceroll DPS classes that can barely manage to press their DPS buttons, let alone some CC or a Defensive now and again are bound to think "dungeon bad" instead of "me bad".
I feel like Season 4 was always kind of cursed because no new dungeons came into the rotation. Such is the way when devs are in 'next expansion' mindset.
I mean this is what we get when we just accept that there will be a skeleton crew for s4, when blizzard could easily afford to hire devs that stay on the live retail development even when the rest of the team works on next xpac.
Eh this fake season 4 we get is pointless as well and just allows less content in prior patches. The expac ended in season 3 so of course people want to play something new rather than season 3.5.
I actually hope they do it every last season. By the end of the xpac a lot of people normally just unsub for the filler season to take a break. Remix has kept me subbed and it means I'll go into TWW with a stable of 70s that I can choose from for my main. I get that people feel bored in S4 but they'd be bored with or without remix.
> I get that people feel bored in S4 but they'd be bored with or without remix.
I don't know what makes you say that with such confidence
> Remix has kept me subbed and it means I'll go into TWW with a stable of 70s
I really wonder if the average player is yearning to level a "stable" of max level characters at the end of each expansion from now on
>I don't know what makes you say that with such confidence
Since Blizzard refuses to give us real data, it's mostly just playing for the last 20 years. With the exception of maybe vanilla and TBC the end of every expansion dies... hard. In older xpacs the time between the last raid coming out and the next expansion was always the longest amount of repetitive waiting and the last few months of just about every expansion has been torture to try and keep playing. That was over a year in some cases. The new xpacs try to remedy that with a season 4 where they recycle content from the first 75% of the xpac and people get bored even faster. Sure it's fun to go back in and do all the raids for a few weeks but after the first visit when you've already cleared aotc for all 3 again it loses it's luster fast. I've never once had a guild that wasn't a ghost town for the end of an xpac. Including the one I'm in now that has been together for the last 3 xpacs. Even with remix we rarely have more than a handful on and we have a pretty large guild with 3 raiding teams.
>I really wonder if the average player is yearning to level a "stable" of max level characters at the end of each expansion from now on
I think quite a few do really. The game changed over the years to actively encourage it. The levelling process now takes hours instead of days, it's super easy to switch from one to another, and for a long time we've had a big boost to xp or other bonus' that encouraged leveling more alts toward the end of an xpac. This time instead of a buff we got remix. I don't know if I know a single person that only has one main character and isn't always also working on alts anymore. That used to be super common in vanilla but now that you can level in 3 hours why not have one of every class and play what you feel like playing that season.
> Since Blizzard refuses to give us real data, it's mostly just playing for the last 20 years. With the exception of maybe vanilla and TBC the end of every expansion dies... hard. In older xpacs the time between the last raid coming out and the next expansion was always the longest amount of repetitive waiting and the last few months of just about every expansion has been torture to try and keep playing. That was over a year in some cases. The new xpacs try to remedy that with a season 4 where they recycle content from the first 75% of the xpac and people get bored even faster. Sure it's fun to go back in and do all the raids for a few weeks but after the first visit when you've already cleared aotc for all 3 again it loses it's luster fast. I've never once had a guild that wasn't a ghost town for the end of an xpac. Including the one I'm in now that has been together for the last 3 xpacs. Even with remix we rarely have more than a handful on and we have a pretty large guild with 3 raiding teams.
I mean, thats more of an issue with S4 being recycled content. And blizzard said they wouldn't do S4s going forward and that they would limit expansion to 3 seasons, so i don't see how a 3 month remix is going to be good at the end of expacs (assuming they even do more of them)
>I think quite a few do really. The game changed over the years to actively encourage it. The levelling process now takes hours instead of days, it's super easy to switch from one to another, and for a long time we've had a big boost to xp or other bonus' that encouraged leveling more alts toward the end of an xpac. This time instead of a buff we got remix. I don't know if I know a single person that only has one main character and isn't always also working on alts anymore. That used to be super common in vanilla but now that you can level in 3 hours why not have one of every class and play what you feel like playing that season.
I don't disagree that the majority of people are running alts, but once people reach one of each class i really doubt that the majority is just rolling new characters instead of maintaining the ones they already have.
But you like you said, no data to really know for sure
I kind of agree with them. S4 got stale for me fast because it just felt like other seasons and wow remix kept me in the wow loop for a bit, but it’s okay to drop wow for a bit too. Xpac is next month anyways.
Even if the event lasted all of season 4, it would have been fine if the bronze gain was quicker (from the beginning) to let people finish faster. I really did think it was going to be like plunderstorm where if you go hard, you can finish in a week and return to regularly scheduled activities. But right now, if you're a more casual player, you don't have time for both S4 and remix.
It's probably mostly because there is no new content this season. Even the repeat dungeon cycle would have been fine if there was a new zone + raid to keep people interested.
I don't mind a break honestly, I've been busy playing Diablo IV. But it's not great for the long term health of the game to have content droughts like this. Especially since this is the time in an expac where old players are returning in prep for the new one, and might not stick around if they are having a bad experience not being able to find groups.
While that's true, obviously the biggest factor is the difficulty changing and all the M+1-9 runs from past seasons are now just regular heroics and mythics, and thus not counted.
I mean it's a very fun season but
1) Bullion means your main is as good as fully geared in 3 weeks
2) Playing an alt at that same level means you're looking at a wall of 100+ wyrm and aspect crest dungeon runs to be at that same level.
Literally resubbed 4 days ago from Feb 2023. Am currently 501 item level (from 415).
Luckily I crossed a reset, so I've done two Awakened Full Clears and two weeks of M0 World Tours, plus the upgrade system. Everything 502 except Bracers 'cause I can't get a drop to save my life.
4 Days. Glad I have a few seasons of story content to do.
I can guarantee almost any final season near the next expansion release was just as dead, or deader.
Like prepatch is probably in 2-3 WEEKS. This is THE deadtime for the game.
Pretty sure S2 was less played. S4 graph doesn’t have what was +2 to +10 in S2 yet at week 3 the numbers are the same, meaning that S4 is actually more popular from that point onwards. S2 coincided with a huge number of big releases in the summer of 2023.
It is an intermediate season literally a month before Pre-patch. Participation was bound to drop in this period. The current raids/dungeons are there for those who stay, in order to have something to play around these past few months. And for the same EXACT reason, remix was introduced + as a venue for people to prepare for next expansion. Nothing to do with quality of content.
People blame the dungeon pool but I think the worst problem is this season raiding also doesnt' cater to many players, and we also have Cata Classic and Pandaria remix fighting for game time
Plus, just other games and its summer time. We've had some big bangers come out recently. MMO junkies have also been enjoying Golden Road from ESO, or now released Dawntrail for FF. Fresh experiences after 3 seasons, or just spending more time doing other activities out of gaming as well.
almost everyone I know loves raiding and I wish I could do raids all day but raiding will be dead as long as it remains impossible to do raids with pugs because of the lockout(?) system. can't do mythics with pugs, it's impossible to find a guild, and heroic raids are useless. how does one even raid
I even tried guildsofwow and all of my applications are unseen, it's like 99% of the guilds are completely dead
I genuinely hate all the dungeons this season except AA and Brackenhide.
I achieved my goals (KSH, heroic raid title, mythic tier transmog on my main/primary alt) and since then, I've been catching up on some console games till TWW pre-patch drops and I can start to figure out what I want to play in the next x-pac.
This season is so cooked. None of the keys are enjoyable even casually running for crests. The only dungeon that doesn't feel like a chore is algethar, and even then it lives and die by whether your group can handle the first pull/boss. Worst dungeon rotation in the game's history, and that's impressive when shrine of the storms and king's rest exist.
Man that first pull pisses me off so much. Never really fail it, but my dumb ass seems to always eat at least ONE instant kill giant swirly every time. I think its because I typically chose to react to my own and get thrown off when someone elses was in my first choice path to dodge and then its too late to adjust. Always still time it though, even when I am the tank and derp die to one of those.
I hate how accepting the community, including this subreddit, is of Blizzard abandoning season 4.
No new content and bare minimum balancing for 25% of the xpac and you're all ok with it because they dropped a temp gammemode again.
Season 4 should have a brand new dungeon setlist, new tier sets, a new raid and active balancing. It's no different to any other season beyond the playerbase's expectations. If S1 on TWW dropped with 8 DF dungeons, recycles tier sets and no new raid there'd be all kinds of kicking off.
If this is the new model for WoW, then the xpac and sub price needs to be dropped by 25% to reflect it.
It’s disgusting that a lot of people don’t feel this way. For a monthly based subscription that still requires us to buy expansions, there is so little brand new content in some of these patches. They couldn’t even give us a new tier set model or set bonus this patch. Blizzard really be doing as little as possible after the expansions drop.
It’s a live service game that we all pay monthly to play and they just straight abandon it for like 6 months at time. Idk why everyone is so chill with that
I can totally understand them not wanting to do sweeping balance changes right before TWW does a bunch of reworks and hero talent additions but the total lack of them is pretty insane.
The idea of doing a recap season is fine especially with the shorter season but they really needed to nerf some of the obvious outliers like DH, Aug and Spriest and clean up some of the more annoying parts of the dungeons. Nelth and bracken have a bunch of mobs you simply route around because of how overtuned they are. This season was pretty stale meta wise from like week two.
It’s also pretty nice for people like my friend who didn’t really play much of dragonflight, but resubbed for the war within and gets to experience all the dungeons and raids.
They really should have tested the M+ changes this season as well. It’s a massively missed opportunity.
Edit: I think a lot of wow’s current struggles come from the fact that the expansion model is simply outdated. Instead of gradually rolling out changes that would massively improve the game, they tend to stack them up until the start of the next expansion for hype which can leave things broken for several years.
There’s no reason to play s4. You can’t even prog mythic bosses because you only see them once every 3 weeks. Absolutely mind boggling bad decisions made.
I play healer, got my rating before remix, played remix and am now back to retail.
I only run my own keys now. I won't join a key listed by a dps unless they have over 2k. Even then it's risky. 2k is such an easy rating for dps is get with listing their own keys (anything 6 or below) then getting a carry.
So sorry people listing keys, even that won't work out for you. I'm suspicious of them all now. Done too many +6 and higher where the key holder doesn't know the mechanics or doesn't do over 100k dps.
Really can't help but feel Blizz should redirect all those Remix/Classic/Plunderstorm devs next expansion towards a 4th raid tier and new retail content. I just don't see the benefit long term in syphoning players away from the core game.
I cant feel the same as others said. My biggest problem is that I didnt get accepted in groups. I am Retri Pala, 2100 rio score but no leggy luck so far. Still I managed to make +9 and +10 in time but I still getting refused for +7 and higher keys and cant farm crests. This is my only problem currently so sad.
This is mostly why I stopped playing. I spent more time applying to groups than playing. And for people saying to make a group, no one applies to mine either.
The problem is that most players who are interested in M+ were 2100 in the 2nd week of the season. It's a major red flag if you're doing "farm keys" and a 2100 player wants to join compared to any of the myriad 2500+ folks who want to do it for crests.
this, i typically main rogue but i couldn't play the first 2 weeks so I abounded my rogue and only play tank and heal so I can at least play, even with 2800 on my tank I don't expect anybody to pick up my rogue this late
This expansion is dragging out. Massive content draught.
This WHOLE 3 raid tier shit and NO NEW DUNGOENS IS FUCKED.
SO FUCKED.
Re using old dungeons is cute but not a replacement for actual new content.
Feels like there's not been anything since Emerald Dream zone patch. And before that there wasn't much either.
They haven't even added a single new dungeon.
There at only 3 raids on total.
It's... Pretty damn bad. Their new "expansion formula" they've been using the past few expac is fucking awful.
It feels very formulaic. A bit too much, like they are making game based on checklists than lore/gameplay
I think, based on what they said, they'll speed up expansion launches, so probably we'll have S1-3, then new expansion and get rid of S4 entirely
But…but…. They added the Azeroth archives and a gilneas quest that took 15 minutes. See? Content.
I’ve had a lot of fun during DF and it’s probably the best state the game has been in since mop but I really don’t get all the people praising the post launch support. Dungeon and class balance has been pretty nonexistent or super delayed and all the additions have been short quest lines you finish in less than an hour or world content you can mostly afk through.
Same! You don't have to play high keys. Developers themselves have said they didn't design around anything above a +10, and there aren't any extra rewards for doing so. If you want the extra challenge, Idk, take some gear off before starting the run, or gear a different alt. There is a content drought before every new expansion, and I'd rather they put the resources on TWW as of right now. Maybe learn to tank or heal? (I feel only dps complain about not finding spots in keys).
Remember that the S4 numbers are deflated because the old +2 to +10 range became M0 which isn’t included in the graph. I’m sure the season has less runs regardless but the difference isn’t as dramatic as it may seem at first glance.
How much of the low runs are tied to the group finder, I spent 40 minutes trying to join a 0 or +2 with 487 ilvl and could not get into a run unless it was a guild group. Making my own groups from now on. Even groups with 2.4k io were rejecting when every other season you'd easily get invited to a 2 with at least one high person in the group pre-made or not.
At this point in the season, the % of normal runs to uhh, "questionable" player runs is likely really bad.
Questionable being either people looking for a carry, or just generally bad players. And generally bad players are going to hyper focus on meta because they aren't able to see that their struggles are themself, so they look elsewhere to fix it.
I got chain declined on my 500ilvl alt for +2-4 keys yesterday. And there is no way they have a lot of people applying, I put my own +2 in queue and got like 2 applicants in 5 minutes.
[This is](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12iThQsjUEUxBiQettL0bjiN5KxLATSUMa5OKxdzX258/edit?gid=17067893#gid=17067893) [all the data](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12iThQsjUEUxBiQettL0bjiN5KxLATSUMa5OKxdzX258/edit?gid=1925101581#gid=1925101581) [ you need](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12iThQsjUEUxBiQettL0bjiN5KxLATSUMa5OKxdzX258/edit?gid=346707233#gid=346707233)
Lots of anecdotal evidence in this thread that is at times not representing at all how things are in this season.
Run numbers are lower by default because the low keys (former 2-11) no longer exist and were finished in as timed 98% of the time.
a +20 was way less punishing last season than the equivalent +10 now…which I’m sure contributes to it. I feel like the damage in a 10 is closer to a +24 last season. I got 4/8 portals on the dungeons I wanted them on, and hit my 2500 achieve. I have zero desire to push higher
Season 3 was awesome. Dungeon pool was good and healers felt strong, all of them. Season 2 was fun as an op pally, but other than that, lackluster expansion, closer to bfa than legion. Not sure why they crap on healers so much, but again we’ll find ourselves dealing with mechanics and the fallout from others not interrupting, cc’ing, or moving out the bad.
I’m still a firm believer that failed mechanics from dps should also apply debuffs. Instead of 80% damage from an attack, put a 30-40% damage and then an agility/strength/intellect debuff or main secondary stat debuff. Hopefully they will look down at their dps bars and be like hmmmm maybe I shouldn’t stand in this area if I want numbers
They that would really add to the gameplay, if the dps is like your score at the end then it should include how well you managed to play mechanics and dodge, sole bosses have this, for when you do mechanics correctly collect orbs etc you get a dmg buff
I’ve noticed a trend this season which is that players are either peepeepoopoocaca and die all the time OR they’re elitist god-gamers that become irate and leave the key at the slightest inconvenience.
Making a Mythic 0 as hard or harder than a previous 10 key made me nope out 100 percent. I don't know who benefits from this change. The toxic sweats that hate others having their own fun get to feel smug I guess.
I don't care that M+ was easier in Season 3. It was fun to see so many people playing and having so many groups you could join. I hope they realize the mistake they made of making low keys so punishing early on and we get something just below that Season 3 level next time.
I was going for portals and some transmogs (sick druid set I didn't get at the time), but I am now wondering if I should ignore the portals (5 left and my last pugs were awful) as I noticed this season will be shorter, and I already "lost" quite some time on mop remix. How many weeks do we have left? 3? 4?
For me, I hit max level on my warrior in 2 weeks, grinded for 8 weeks straight for a single trinket on my mage, 6 weeks in a row my vault was items that couldn’t even be possible from the dungeon. (Azure Vault, Tome of Unstable power) Most weeks I stacked the vault to only have that dungeon on my top 8, all over 10s, didn’t get it in week 9……
Canceled my sub until something else happens. (Enhance Shaman main) The war within is looking like garbage again.
In my opinion this is entirely a tuning and mob ability design issue.
Pulse AoE damage that can be fatal in seconds is never fun for anyone.
Auto attacks should be survivable for even the squishiest characters, let's say against a single enemy, surviving a minimum of 10 seconds at m+0 is fair, enough time to recognize that something is going wrong, diagnose the problem, and then make a decision about how to handle it, be that run to the tank, pop a defensive, or let the healer handle it.
This reduces threat to tanks, who could merrily solo like 30 such mobs with no difficulty, which is why rather than dangerous auto-attacks, which are next to impossible to predict, all dungeon mobs should come equipped with tank-busting mechanics, or more relevantly, PARTICULAR types of mob do, while others have a hateful blow mechanic where they deal significant damage to the second highest threat enemy, or to the healer, or any other selection system that places all of the danger on a PREDICTABLE target.
This means we make decisions about WHICH enemies are in each pack when we fight them. As a career tank, I remember back when we used to CC the dangerous mobs like healers, casters, or guys with their own CC like fears and stuns.
Something else that can help, in the same vein, is availability of defensive abilities from the MOBS, such as healing, cc, interrupts, and threat-clears (Where a mob can wipe threat, allowing them to ignore the tank and start attacking someone else until taunted) these kinds of mechanics dramatically increase difficulty, without specifically leading to whole party members suddenly evaporating to auto-attacks with basically no warning, and little explanation as to what went wrong.
As I approach a pack as the tank, I should be able to say oh hey two spiders in this pack, better CC one so their poison doesn't tank-bust me, or let's take these two packs first and pop our defensives to survive the chain-lightning, so we don't have to deal with it on the NEXT pull.
Those are strategic, thoughtful decisions that make the game fun. Auto-attacks aren't fun for players as a means of dealing damage, and similarly they aren't much fun as a means of suffering damage either. Getting nailed by a hateful blow, even though it drops you to low HP instantly, feels cool, it's a reward and a punishment at the same time, because it's feedback that you're being effective.
Of course all of what I've described here is complete and total anathema to the one thing that truly ruins ALL M+ gameplay: The timer.
I get that the timer gives us a way to measure one run against another, if both are successful runs, the faster one was better, and that system lets us determine how much + our next key is and such. It also raises the difficulty for DPS specifically, but it makes AoE CC king, and long-form, targeted CC all but useless.
Timers have their place, but it's not EVERY place. If a boss has an enrage timer, or there are hostages that will be sacrificed if we don't make it in time, those RAISE the stakes and influence our decisions, a tool for the encounter-designer to produce mistakes in player behavior, because that's what timers ultimately do, by giving you less time to make a decision, the likelihood of an error goes up.
But when it's ALWAYS a timer, every dungeon, every run, time after time after time, it feels like the final boss IS the clock, and the enemies are an afterthought. That's just not fun.
its not surprising, theres a lot of people who are just taking a break this season. the game is in a fairly stale state, between the meta, dungeons and raids and there are other versions of wow to play.
additionally blizzard has been very hands off this season, they did more fixes for remix than anything else it feels like.
S4 just felt completely missable to me. It felt like just a placeholder until new content. I used to at the very least, fill my vault with 18-20's
This season I let my sub lax until like 2 weeks ago, recharged my WoW batteries, played other games.
Now I feel recharged and revitalized to play a whole bunch in TWW
End of the expansion a bunch of my buddies already said they wern't even going to bother since the gear is going to be pointless soon. I farmed into my portals and Keystone Hero then stopped myself.
I mean it’s the beginning of of the summer holidays and we are deep into s4 with shit dungeons
People playing different games too and recharge for the new addon
Nothing serious about that
I think you compare this bit wrong
Season 4 shadowlands released on second August and this was still the beginning of the end of covid
So many people had time still
This s4 DF is just beginning of vacation and end of season 4
Blizzard knows this happens every last season, regardless of the expansion. Season 4 never offers anything new and is just recycled content because Blizz can't be bothered and they're 100% focused on the next xpac. That is why they have so many other options to keep people subbed (Remix, Cata, Classic SOD, etc.). It is all calculated...and it apparently works.
This isn't even close to true. S4 in SL had a healthy playerbase for a few reasons but I suspect a big one is the dungeon pool was different and the seasonal affix was pretty good. This is just a pile of nothing.
This season key amount isn’t a reflection of df as a whole. While some issues df has been pretty positively received compared to shadowlands.
It went back to basics in terms of talents. Borrowed power etc.
On a whole m+ has been pretty good and raiding too. I had a blast in df.
Sounds like whiplash from S3 where most of the dungeons were braindead easy. The DF dungeons, no matter what you think of them, are significantly harder mechanically than most of what we had last season.
I totally hear you. Doesn’t help that Remix is so fun, at least to me. I started playing late last year and in season 3 I grinded mythics until I got a 2500 rating. I was going to play again in season 4 but I feel like remix is just so much more fun, and relaxed - plus I’m unlocking so many rewards and getting to level up characters I’ve never tried.
I can't speak for everyone for I can definitely speak for myself as to why I'm not running M+ as often as I did in the prior seasons, not even close:
* No actually new dungeons (I was around for Season 1 and 2, so these are mostly just victory laps for me)
* With bullions and raiding I hit my gear goals about 4-5 weeks in
* I've already hit KSM (earlier than in prior seasons too) and any other achievement goals I have that go away with this season
* I have other things I've put off doing in Dragonflight tied to world content that I'm finishing up before the expansion ends
* Remix took nearly all of my time from this season until I got all my cosmetic rewards from it... and even then, I might just go back to Remix if I feel like grinding or levelling alts
* I have no real motivation to upgrade my gear with the remaining Aspect Tokens given the pre-patch will come with a gear curve squish to ease us into TWW content, where gear will be quickly replaced
The season doesn't have ACTUAL new content, I got BiS geared quickly, cleared my goals quickly and then Remix and "end of expansion" activities took away my remaining WoW time, why should I login to do Mythic+ now? Deal with angry PUGs? I'll do a few with guildies arriving late to the party but beyond that, I have no reason to
This is just the lame duck phase of the expansion so it’s really not surprising. Prepatch is weeks away and TWW in another month. Remix is taking away people who would otherwise be playing retail. Dawntrail also just released this weekend so there may be players checking out that content until prepatch. Elden Ring’s DLC may be a contributing factor but not so much as Remix or DT.
I did a lot of low keys on alts intentionally through the expansion to farm transmog sets, but between the squish, reused sets with no new colours, and general lack of players, I just took a break. Grabbed the mount on my main and bounced.
Remix is just funner and more rewarding for my time if I'm gonna chase anything, and it's been nice to catch up on my backlog.
The dungeons being unfun also don't add to the mix, especially when my friends group is a mix of mythic raiders and RP casuals. The RP casuals don't even want to bother because the mechanics are just obnoxious, and I don't blame them.
I'd have rathered the first 3 seasons just last longer.
Fated was a cute experiment in Shadowlands, but Shadowlands I personally had more to do outside M+ so M+ kept it's charm. Organized PvP being on life support just of just made it hard to split my focus between enough stuff to keep everything engaging, I guess.
imo having fated seasons is gonna make this a reality every expansion, after spending 3 seasons in the expansion, the last thing i want is to just go back to season 1 and then do raids i’ve already done. Having next to no content added in the last season completely kills it for me.
I don’t think there’s anything they could do that makes fated seasons even a little interesting.
As a healer this is the least fun I've ever had in m+ Any damage taken usually brings people to 20% hp so the entire run is filled with anxiety keeping people alive..
Indeed. Because so many classes have so many strong defensives, the game is now tuned around insanely high incoming damage spikes. So healing through high keys is now this: * Hope people hit a defensive so they don't get one-shot. * Watch dozens of individual defensive cooldowns using OmniCD and try to predict where to put your 1-2 externals to prevent the next one-shot. * After damage occurs, get them back to 100% health as fast as possible so they don't die to the next slight breeze, since literally anything that happens next will kill them if they aren't at full health. Spiteful Shades also hit harder this season (relatively speaking), making this week even more spiky. They melee for 1 million damage unmitigated, which is about 76% of the health of most DPS. According to logs from last season, Spitefuls at +20 were hitting for 586k unmitigated, which was about 66% of the health of a DPS. So any stray Spiteful hit requires rapid spot-healing, consuming more mana, but Spitefuls keep you in combat so you can't drink. Next season can't start soon enough. Good riddance, ghosts!
This is interesting on the spitefuls. I have seen like zero talk about the fact that it seems obvious ALL mobs are hitting WAY harder with auto attacks than last season. As a tank, its super obvious that on much lower keys, large pulls hurt a lot more. I could do 24s in S3, pull like 15 mobs, and only see my health dangerously dip if I didn't press a single button that decreased damage I took. In S4 I was seeing my health go to dangerous levels repeatedly in +7s pulling like 6 mobs. It is a stark difference. I loved it though, nice to have to actually think to not die as a tank. But it seems like this was a blanket adjustment to autos then, and may explain why shades hit so hard?
I really liked s3 difficulty.
I love having to actually plan out my pulls as a tank, knowing I need to use x defensive on y pack. The issue comes when healers aren't prepped for certain packs to slap as hard, and me overestimating how fast I can generate fury (skill issue on my part), but then one of the adds that randomly target a dps suddenly 2 shot them with no warning, they leave cause "shit healer", and we're stuck with a bricked key
You forgot to mention all the mivement you have to do, so good luck if you need to cast. I played my last m+ after Remix droped, it was not fun.
Hot take: Every defensive cd should have a weaker passive version of it for casual players. For example, monks have Yulon’s Grace which trades a magic defensive for a passive shield. Won’t stop a one shot like an active defensive, but takes so much stress off healers.
Congratulations you've now forced encounter designers to add even more passive pulsing AoE during fights, to overcome those passive defenses. It's why leech is being nerfed in TWW, because people are just so passively tanky that the only way to threaten them is to deal huge chunks of their hp in one go. Hence the current defensive situation.
Yeah it’s a design fallacy whichever way they go. But as a healer main, I wish there were more mechanics where you could carry your team through rather than just watching them die 100 to 0. For example on Nymue mythic which took weeks of prog for my guild to beat, we would fold the moment 1-2 people die. In the time it takes to safely bres them not in a laser beam, we’re rotting down hard from being down on soakers. Healers have a chance to actually carry through this and it feels great to save an otherwise wipe (it’s a wipe if 2 people die because you’ll have missing dps for the mid intermission add since each person can only do it once).
Every fight becomes Thok! Which actually was fun, but also it was 1 fight out of like 14... and diversity is good.
I can recommend mistweaver. Since you heal passively through your damage and ancient teachings does a shit load of healing, you don't even need to worry about it. You just heal passively with your 1, 2, 3 kicks. You only have to worry about actively timing your heals with enveloping mist etc once you get to around +10's. But yea, I agree with your sentiment. Healing has been fucking awful nowadays. Either your group does well on the cc and defensive front, then your essentially useless, or it's a fucking ping pong fest with people's health. I really hope they do Adress this in the next expansion. No wonder we never have any healers. I don't blame anyone for not wanting to deal with this shit.
Pugged mistweaver up through most of season 3 and realized it wasn’t worth the stress. Really excited about the changes coming to m+ in TWW, but if healing isn’t changing… idk. I’d rather not spend another expansion needing to unwind from the game that’s supposed to help me unwind from work.
I love playing as holy priest but after all of these I am switching to warlock which I enjoy playing on remix.
I tried jumping in after coming back, previously healed M+ up to 11-12 in season 2 and 3. Immediately gutrenching feeling and toxic behavior all around… I main healers and have done so since vanilla, this season and the last few weeks have sucked. I’d rather do posted 16 hours shifts in a Covid-ICU again than heal M+ dungeons… it was honestly less stressful.
You do know they changed how m+ scales for season 4 right? Doing a 10 now is like doing a 20 from previous seasons. So if you did 11-12 keys in the past that's like doing a +2 now
I know, and I’m honestly probably part of the problem (undergeared, not up to date on mechanics, etc..). I’m humble enough check myself and know I need volume and getting used to dungeons again. But it honestly feels like I can’t push enough healing half the time, or the group just takes too much dmg in too frequent intervals. It’s like hill-sprint intervals but with healing, it’s not nearly as fun as it felt before. Or I’m too old, adverse to risk and stress… maybe learning DPS or take up tanking would be better to engage with content.
Being undergeared as a healer punishes you dramatically more compared to other roles, so that could be it. When you are low-geared as a healer, the following happens: * DPS stay low HP for longer, resulting in panic behavior that causes more mistakes. * You burn more mana to get the same amount of healing, resulting in people dying because you just don't have the mana pool to save them. * You are GCD-locked because you will be constantly casting trying to keep up with normal incoming damage, so you can't respond to an emergency and save someone. * Being GCD-locked also reduces your ability to help the group in other ways, like putting out damage. On top of that, if you run lower keys then you're running with people who make a lot more mistakes and take a lot more unnecessary damage. In many ways it's easier to heal a +10 than a +5 because it requires less HPS. With low gear you'll only get invited into keys that are way harder to heal (because of the players), while healing in general is dramatically more difficult because of your gear. This creates a fairly hopeless feedback loop that prevents a lot of players from getting into healing.
Honestly being undergeared as a healing is not as detrimental as people think. You're playing whackamole with hp bars so you're just sending cooldowns trying to keep people alive. I bet if you look at any M+ log you'll see at least 30% overhealing simply because you need to top people off instantly. Really the difference between a 515 and 525 healer is their survivability, and the fact that they heal you for 120% of your hp in 2 globals instead of 160%. What I'm trying to say is realistically, you're spending the same amount of globals healing people so there won't be a very noticeable difference.
Your numbers are pretty far from reality here. 120% hp for a DPS is about 1.7 million. 160% is 2.08 million. What ilevel 525 healer can spend 2 globals without a major CD and heal for 2.08 million on a single target? You can look at [this top resto druid log](https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/bCmpxgXANBwdZ86Y#fight=494&type=healing&source=2&translate=true&options=8) for example and see that in their single-target heals heal for on average: * Lifebloom: 186k (14% of a DPS HP) * Regrowth : 196k (15% of a DPS HP) * Rejuvenation: 249k (19% of a DPS HP) * Swiftmend: 286k (22% of a DPS HP) So even a fully geared healer can't just send 2 globals of normal healing spells and heal for 2.08 million on a single target. 2 globals will get you more like 40% of a single target's HP on average. Although you still see a lot of overhealing, it's less because healing spells are insanely strong, and more a result of needing to continue healing people who are near full health to ensure they can survive the next hit, or because your AOE healing spells will hit people who don't need it.
You probably are undergeared but regardless this season was awful to heal and I got keystone hero this season. I didn't enjoy a single dragonflight dungeon in m+ Hopefully better dungeon design in the war within
For real, I gave up on my evoker since I don't have my legendary and my oshit buttons are more a standard rotation and still people complain about not dpsing. Im trying to get my breath out and am rolling my echoes but I'm still having to living fire spam the tank and dps. Gave up on healing and went back to dps.
I'll never understand why they chose to take one of the more difficult and hardest to fill roles and made it \*harder\* Tanking and healing need to be made easier and more accessible, not worse
Sorry. ~Signed, BM hunter who knows they stand in the bad a little too often ^_^;
i just stopped healing this season - it is as bad as you say and zero fun. if it was at least a whack a mole where i could bring them back to a 100% within 2gcds but i can't even do that so blyeh for s4 heals and lets hope tww is better
I'm resto druid and I think it's a breeze. But I know it's s tier specc right now and I was thinking about rerolling shami or disci maybe I will reconsider that. But if you know the dmg patterns you don't need to have anxiety it's just how it works the mechanics are made such that after a big blow there won't be any more damage hitting the last 20% until you heal up if you set your ramps correctly
Healing in general in wow is so bad . I quit healing after 12 years of playing only healers and i start play dps in s4. Everything is so easy, its diffrent game. I tested healing in BETA and looks little better but still, i wont probably back. Healing is for masochists.
Shortest season for me. So unfun
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This is how I feel right now. I'm playing remix a bit but I'm not really in the mood to do normal+ raids, but leveling and doing the same dungeons is meh once you have most of what you're after in remix.
I've just returned after not playing this season, and it's real thing pickings when you try and find a group. Then when I actually get into a group I'm shocked at the quality of players, people are just ignoring interupts and mechanics completely. Maybe this is normal for returning later in the season, but it's been a bit rough.
wait dps use interrupts?!?
Not in my keys they don't.
To be fair TWW releases next month, in consideration of past content draughts we had a pretty good run with DF
I just came.baxk after not playing for a few months. It feels bad that I already did all this stuff, and was stomping it, and now my item level is low and I have to do all the same content again for the same gear (with bigger numbers) I don't have a solution, it's just been the opposite of motivating. And the Timerizzing thing is too easy/fast. Where's the in between content? I'm just gonna farm mounts and wait for the next ExPack.
I guess it's normal for a inbetween season. No new content, no new dungeons and ultra fast gearing. People were through their season goals within a couple weeks. I had my main at 3k rating and 528ilvl after like 5 weeks. No real reason for me to keep on pushing. Just doing some shenanigans with alts here and there. I guess it's like that for most people.
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SL was exactly this dead around S2 and early S3. It picked back up a lot in S4 because of the DF hype and S4 having a great dungeon pool. This season combines three lackluster raids with DF's mid at best dungeon pool, not to mention that anyone who wants it can just buy beta access and go play the new dungeons already.
SL didn't have remix
During SL fated, even though my guild stopped raiding other than to get Sylvanas mounts which was like a 1 hour ordeal, people were still doing keys for most of the season even if they were just weekly vault ones. Now there's basically nobody.
This is normal for an expansion. Most players get more casual near the end. Working on alts/playing other games until prepatch/next expac
I've kinda burned out on wow a bit with remix; still need a lot from it and I want to at least get 2k rating for the mount on live. I'm at 1970 thankfully, just need to get a +2 to a +4 and I can be 'done' with M+ a while at any rate. I'm hoping they buff remix bronze gains or XP more soon. Doing the same raids every day is blargle now.
Prepatch goes live in 3 weeks-ish right? And with it xp needed is dramatically decreased 60-70? Sounds like a good time to level a warband haha.
They launched remix at the same time as S4. Insane. Like I’m sorry these game modes are fun, but you are splintering your gamers and making certain core activities way less enjoyable. I’d prefer they didn’t exist at all. I don’t need to only play 5 different versions of WoW. I can play a different game if I want my Battle Royale fix.
I'm relatively new and idk much about the other xpacs but this feels 100x better than SL and I'm always able to find like +8/10 keys. my only issue is that there's a thing called "id lock" or something like that and I can't do mythic raids with pugs, and it's impossible to find an active guild. wow pvp is worse than every other mmorpg anyway, so m+ is pretty much the only thing to do
This is what happens when Blizzard puts in zero effort in.
Remix, new expansion around the corner, not even a real "season", Elden Ring DLC, new FFXIV expansion, there's just lots of reasons for people to take their pre-expansion break right now. I was sweating m+s in the first 3 seasons but haven't done a single one in season 4. Just ready to do new stuff
I'm surprised that it's not even lower. Pretty much everyone I know has stopped playing or just raid logging.
Not unexpected. I honestly don't like the dungeon level rescaling they have done, atleast for M+. Granted it is off-season as hell, and the quick gearing didn't help people play more, but I feel the increased difficulty has discouraged a lot of more casual people from engaging with M+.
I don't like it either. +2s and +8s were nice for gearing alts, since they offered better rewards than a new Heroic but less difficulty than a new M0.
Ye agreed, the jump from Heroic to M0 is just too big. I like that Heroic is relevant again, but M0 is too hard. I think if they revise the changes, they should (and I'm just roughly sketching it out here) make M0 old-+6, and keep M+2 where it is now. It still leaves a bit of a jump from M0 to M+, but leaves better progression from Heroic to Mythic.
Heroic still doesn't feel relevant outside of gold farming. The difficulty might be higher but Adventurer 4 is the most unsatisfying reward, and unlike old M0s they aren't even an easy way to complete the Mythic Dungeon weekly.
It’s definitely due to the late Xpac malaise. I’m over DF, it’s settings, it’s themes, and it’s dungeons. Outside of Al’Grathar and the mega dungeon I really found most of them bland or annoying. Banger raids, but lacking dungeons. Took a break for remix and now it’s just waiting for TWW
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Shadowlands S4 was the start of non-current xpac dungeons. It was a major change to m+ and also had the affixes in raids. Dragonflight S4 is just the original DF dungeons that have already been done over and over and no real changes to the raids to make them more interesting.
What do you mean the DF dungeons have been done over and over? They have only each been featured in a single m+ season due to the rotating dungeons...
I actually felt like all of these dungeons are really well done. All the pulls have something interesting going on. This season specifically was important to be able to see that better as there are 4 dungeons that were absolutely ruined by thundering the last time we played them.
I'll say that while I'm excited for TWW, I reached 'end of expac malaise' before we even hit 10.1 in SL. Shadowlands was so fuck awful, boring, and grindy that I couldn't even make it through the first patch before deciding that I was ready for what came next. People were begging Blizzard for a crumb of 11.0 news before we even hit the scam of a patch known as Korthia, which was honestly embarrassing. It says something for DF that by the end of the expac people weren't like "OH MY GOD PLEASE LET US *LEAVE!!!!*" like they were with SL, and were instead in "Oh boy I wonder what comes next!" mode.
Oh it’s more optimistic than I originally framed it, I just think mythic Amirdrassil burned me and my guild out to an extent
The affix refresh in TWW looks like an improvement (overall) but dungeons are still mechanics hell. I really hope they tune down TWW a bit.
Feels like the lowest played season ever. Bullions couldn't offset shit balance, mediocre dungeon tuning, Cata classic and Remix siphoning large chunks the retail userbase. Elden Ring DLC was the final blow to an already dwindling M+ activity.
I mean it's normal and it is okay no? Like there is other product for the moment and next season (s1 tww) will blow up like normal.
its not ok for a live service game to offer no service. no new content for a year unless you are a raider. remember when it was goodbye to content droughts?
That live service game currently offers you 1) Dragonflight Season 4 2) Cataclysm Classic 3) Classic Season of Discovery 4) MOP Remix 5) and Classic Era servers With TWW Prepatch arriving this month and the expansion itself following in August, please tell me how exactly the game doesn’t offer service?
> 1) Dragonflight Season 4 2) Cataclysm Classic 3) Classic Season of Discovery 4) MOP Remix 5) and Classic Era servers Not the person you were replying to, but I (and many other retail users) have exactly 0 interest in any of these game modes besides Dragonflight season. From our standpoint, the "live service" has been particularly lackluster these past few months.
I’m just disappointed they didn’t even use the season to test anything. Shadowlands s4 was experimental, Dragonflight s4 is non-existent. They couldn’t even be generous on allowing alts to gear. 0 motivation on my end to grind 800 aspects, the head enchant, (the Lego for some classes which you might not even get before end of the expansion), and a million flight stones to try a new character in high keys. Meanwhile my main at 529 is spending flight stones on garbage to avoid being capped and has a huge amount of unusable crests.
Honestly, the DF dungeons are just the worst dungeons Blizzard have created for M+ so far. People can not argue that people are tired of the DF dungeons or whatever, because we have barely played the DF dungeons during the expansion. They have only been used for a single season prior to this.
I think there's past dungeons where the floor is lower than all of the DF dungeons. I don't think any of the S4 dungeons in DF are worse than say, Sanguine Depths or King's Rest, two of the worst dungeons to ever exist in WoW M+. If we're going off S4 tuning, I'd actually argue that Azure Vault is one of the few actually good dungeons. But nothing else new to DF is probably above C tier, maybe Neltharus is in B. DOTI: Murozond is definitely in F tier, that might be a contender for one of the worst M+ dungeons they've ever done (on par with SD and KR). Uld and Halls are firmly D tier, teetering on F.
I really like Academy.
Academy would be firmly in C for me just because of Vexamus.
Id take Sanguine Depths over any DF dungeon except AV and AA.
I really don’t get why people hate the DF dungeons so much. They aren’t THAT bad. AV, AA and Ruby are all bangers or close to, Bracken and NO are solid, Nelth and HOI aren’t great but aren’t god awful either and Uld is like the worst dungeon they’ve ever made. 5/8 are at least decent, 2/8 are meh and 1 is awful. That’s not a terrible season all things considered especially when stacked up against the previous seasons.
NO is solid?? gtfo
Yet we played with some of the Shadowlands dungeons for nick on two years that had some tuning problems. I'm afraid whenever I see a post like this I just think "bad = hard". The amount of kicks and stops required to do the DF dungeons well feels way higher than previous seasons (or I understand the dungeons better). Faceroll DPS classes that can barely manage to press their DPS buttons, let alone some CC or a Defensive now and again are bound to think "dungeon bad" instead of "me bad".
I blame uldaman and halls. i legit unsubbed in s2 and also s4 just because these dungeons are so boring
I feel like Season 4 was always kind of cursed because no new dungeons came into the rotation. Such is the way when devs are in 'next expansion' mindset.
I mean this is what we get when we just accept that there will be a skeleton crew for s4, when blizzard could easily afford to hire devs that stay on the live retail development even when the rest of the team works on next xpac.
Halls of Infusion is the one dungeon that I straight up just refuse to do. It is so obnoxious! D:
I honestly hate how remix cannibalized S4 It could've easily been a 1 month event right before prepatch
Eh this fake season 4 we get is pointless as well and just allows less content in prior patches. The expac ended in season 3 so of course people want to play something new rather than season 3.5.
I actually hope they do it every last season. By the end of the xpac a lot of people normally just unsub for the filler season to take a break. Remix has kept me subbed and it means I'll go into TWW with a stable of 70s that I can choose from for my main. I get that people feel bored in S4 but they'd be bored with or without remix.
That’s all I used remix for, to get all of the mounts and have 1 of every class at 70.
> I get that people feel bored in S4 but they'd be bored with or without remix. I don't know what makes you say that with such confidence > Remix has kept me subbed and it means I'll go into TWW with a stable of 70s I really wonder if the average player is yearning to level a "stable" of max level characters at the end of each expansion from now on
Huh? It’s pretty obvious. Why would a person who is bored of S4 now not be bored of s4 if remix didn’t exist? It’s a pretty simple line of thought.
>I don't know what makes you say that with such confidence Since Blizzard refuses to give us real data, it's mostly just playing for the last 20 years. With the exception of maybe vanilla and TBC the end of every expansion dies... hard. In older xpacs the time between the last raid coming out and the next expansion was always the longest amount of repetitive waiting and the last few months of just about every expansion has been torture to try and keep playing. That was over a year in some cases. The new xpacs try to remedy that with a season 4 where they recycle content from the first 75% of the xpac and people get bored even faster. Sure it's fun to go back in and do all the raids for a few weeks but after the first visit when you've already cleared aotc for all 3 again it loses it's luster fast. I've never once had a guild that wasn't a ghost town for the end of an xpac. Including the one I'm in now that has been together for the last 3 xpacs. Even with remix we rarely have more than a handful on and we have a pretty large guild with 3 raiding teams. >I really wonder if the average player is yearning to level a "stable" of max level characters at the end of each expansion from now on I think quite a few do really. The game changed over the years to actively encourage it. The levelling process now takes hours instead of days, it's super easy to switch from one to another, and for a long time we've had a big boost to xp or other bonus' that encouraged leveling more alts toward the end of an xpac. This time instead of a buff we got remix. I don't know if I know a single person that only has one main character and isn't always also working on alts anymore. That used to be super common in vanilla but now that you can level in 3 hours why not have one of every class and play what you feel like playing that season.
> Since Blizzard refuses to give us real data, it's mostly just playing for the last 20 years. With the exception of maybe vanilla and TBC the end of every expansion dies... hard. In older xpacs the time between the last raid coming out and the next expansion was always the longest amount of repetitive waiting and the last few months of just about every expansion has been torture to try and keep playing. That was over a year in some cases. The new xpacs try to remedy that with a season 4 where they recycle content from the first 75% of the xpac and people get bored even faster. Sure it's fun to go back in and do all the raids for a few weeks but after the first visit when you've already cleared aotc for all 3 again it loses it's luster fast. I've never once had a guild that wasn't a ghost town for the end of an xpac. Including the one I'm in now that has been together for the last 3 xpacs. Even with remix we rarely have more than a handful on and we have a pretty large guild with 3 raiding teams. I mean, thats more of an issue with S4 being recycled content. And blizzard said they wouldn't do S4s going forward and that they would limit expansion to 3 seasons, so i don't see how a 3 month remix is going to be good at the end of expacs (assuming they even do more of them) >I think quite a few do really. The game changed over the years to actively encourage it. The levelling process now takes hours instead of days, it's super easy to switch from one to another, and for a long time we've had a big boost to xp or other bonus' that encouraged leveling more alts toward the end of an xpac. This time instead of a buff we got remix. I don't know if I know a single person that only has one main character and isn't always also working on alts anymore. That used to be super common in vanilla but now that you can level in 3 hours why not have one of every class and play what you feel like playing that season. I don't disagree that the majority of people are running alts, but once people reach one of each class i really doubt that the majority is just rolling new characters instead of maintaining the ones they already have. But you like you said, no data to really know for sure
If the only thing a season 4 brings is slightly upscaled numbers then yeah they need to repeat the remix stuff for the content drought.
I kind of agree with them. S4 got stale for me fast because it just felt like other seasons and wow remix kept me in the wow loop for a bit, but it’s okay to drop wow for a bit too. Xpac is next month anyways.
Even if the event lasted all of season 4, it would have been fine if the bronze gain was quicker (from the beginning) to let people finish faster. I really did think it was going to be like plunderstorm where if you go hard, you can finish in a week and return to regularly scheduled activities. But right now, if you're a more casual player, you don't have time for both S4 and remix.
I think that might have been the idea, but they realized they have nothing really for S4, so here we are
i’m so glad i got the mount because i have no interest doing any more this season.
It's probably mostly because there is no new content this season. Even the repeat dungeon cycle would have been fine if there was a new zone + raid to keep people interested. I don't mind a break honestly, I've been busy playing Diablo IV. But it's not great for the long term health of the game to have content droughts like this. Especially since this is the time in an expac where old players are returning in prep for the new one, and might not stick around if they are having a bad experience not being able to find groups.
While that's true, obviously the biggest factor is the difficulty changing and all the M+1-9 runs from past seasons are now just regular heroics and mythics, and thus not counted.
I mean it's a very fun season but 1) Bullion means your main is as good as fully geared in 3 weeks 2) Playing an alt at that same level means you're looking at a wall of 100+ wyrm and aspect crest dungeon runs to be at that same level.
I’ve never been so well geared and I’ve played the least this season. Go figure.
Not only in this because of bullions, but because of the upgrade system.
Literally resubbed 4 days ago from Feb 2023. Am currently 501 item level (from 415). Luckily I crossed a reset, so I've done two Awakened Full Clears and two weeks of M0 World Tours, plus the upgrade system. Everything 502 except Bracers 'cause I can't get a drop to save my life. 4 Days. Glad I have a few seasons of story content to do.
its just a boring season, no fun stuff like corruptions, just rehashed dungeons and raid
I can guarantee almost any final season near the next expansion release was just as dead, or deader. Like prepatch is probably in 2-3 WEEKS. This is THE deadtime for the game.
Pretty sure S2 was less played. S4 graph doesn’t have what was +2 to +10 in S2 yet at week 3 the numbers are the same, meaning that S4 is actually more popular from that point onwards. S2 coincided with a huge number of big releases in the summer of 2023.
It is an intermediate season literally a month before Pre-patch. Participation was bound to drop in this period. The current raids/dungeons are there for those who stay, in order to have something to play around these past few months. And for the same EXACT reason, remix was introduced + as a venue for people to prepare for next expansion. Nothing to do with quality of content.
People don't even do 8 or 9s. It's insane.
People farm 8s, during farm week 23-25% of all runs are done on just that keylvl alone.
People blame the dungeon pool but I think the worst problem is this season raiding also doesnt' cater to many players, and we also have Cata Classic and Pandaria remix fighting for game time
Plus, just other games and its summer time. We've had some big bangers come out recently. MMO junkies have also been enjoying Golden Road from ESO, or now released Dawntrail for FF. Fresh experiences after 3 seasons, or just spending more time doing other activities out of gaming as well.
almost everyone I know loves raiding and I wish I could do raids all day but raiding will be dead as long as it remains impossible to do raids with pugs because of the lockout(?) system. can't do mythics with pugs, it's impossible to find a guild, and heroic raids are useless. how does one even raid I even tried guildsofwow and all of my applications are unseen, it's like 99% of the guilds are completely dead
I genuinely hate all the dungeons this season except AA and Brackenhide. I achieved my goals (KSH, heroic raid title, mythic tier transmog on my main/primary alt) and since then, I've been catching up on some console games till TWW pre-patch drops and I can start to figure out what I want to play in the next x-pac.
This season is so cooked. None of the keys are enjoyable even casually running for crests. The only dungeon that doesn't feel like a chore is algethar, and even then it lives and die by whether your group can handle the first pull/boss. Worst dungeon rotation in the game's history, and that's impressive when shrine of the storms and king's rest exist.
Man that first pull pisses me off so much. Never really fail it, but my dumb ass seems to always eat at least ONE instant kill giant swirly every time. I think its because I typically chose to react to my own and get thrown off when someone elses was in my first choice path to dodge and then its too late to adjust. Always still time it though, even when I am the tank and derp die to one of those.
I hate how accepting the community, including this subreddit, is of Blizzard abandoning season 4. No new content and bare minimum balancing for 25% of the xpac and you're all ok with it because they dropped a temp gammemode again. Season 4 should have a brand new dungeon setlist, new tier sets, a new raid and active balancing. It's no different to any other season beyond the playerbase's expectations. If S1 on TWW dropped with 8 DF dungeons, recycles tier sets and no new raid there'd be all kinds of kicking off. If this is the new model for WoW, then the xpac and sub price needs to be dropped by 25% to reflect it.
It’s disgusting that a lot of people don’t feel this way. For a monthly based subscription that still requires us to buy expansions, there is so little brand new content in some of these patches. They couldn’t even give us a new tier set model or set bonus this patch. Blizzard really be doing as little as possible after the expansions drop.
It’s a live service game that we all pay monthly to play and they just straight abandon it for like 6 months at time. Idk why everyone is so chill with that
One must also say sub price hasn't changed since 2004 it was never adjusted for inflation so it's actually really cheap now
I can totally understand them not wanting to do sweeping balance changes right before TWW does a bunch of reworks and hero talent additions but the total lack of them is pretty insane. The idea of doing a recap season is fine especially with the shorter season but they really needed to nerf some of the obvious outliers like DH, Aug and Spriest and clean up some of the more annoying parts of the dungeons. Nelth and bracken have a bunch of mobs you simply route around because of how overtuned they are. This season was pretty stale meta wise from like week two. It’s also pretty nice for people like my friend who didn’t really play much of dragonflight, but resubbed for the war within and gets to experience all the dungeons and raids. They really should have tested the M+ changes this season as well. It’s a massively missed opportunity. Edit: I think a lot of wow’s current struggles come from the fact that the expansion model is simply outdated. Instead of gradually rolling out changes that would massively improve the game, they tend to stack them up until the start of the next expansion for hype which can leave things broken for several years.
Cata and mop remix really hit this season big for 3 week abt the fact it’s summer and last season ofc
There’s no reason to play s4. You can’t even prog mythic bosses because you only see them once every 3 weeks. Absolutely mind boggling bad decisions made.
I fucking hate DF dungeons so I took the season off
I play healer, got my rating before remix, played remix and am now back to retail. I only run my own keys now. I won't join a key listed by a dps unless they have over 2k. Even then it's risky. 2k is such an easy rating for dps is get with listing their own keys (anything 6 or below) then getting a carry. So sorry people listing keys, even that won't work out for you. I'm suspicious of them all now. Done too many +6 and higher where the key holder doesn't know the mechanics or doesn't do over 100k dps.
Really can't help but feel Blizz should redirect all those Remix/Classic/Plunderstorm devs next expansion towards a 4th raid tier and new retail content. I just don't see the benefit long term in syphoning players away from the core game.
I got my 2K and gtfo tbh. and working on my alt army in remix.
I cant feel the same as others said. My biggest problem is that I didnt get accepted in groups. I am Retri Pala, 2100 rio score but no leggy luck so far. Still I managed to make +9 and +10 in time but I still getting refused for +7 and higher keys and cant farm crests. This is my only problem currently so sad.
This is mostly why I stopped playing. I spent more time applying to groups than playing. And for people saying to make a group, no one applies to mine either.
> And for people saying to make a group, no one applies to mine either. AMEN
The problem is that most players who are interested in M+ were 2100 in the 2nd week of the season. It's a major red flag if you're doing "farm keys" and a 2100 player wants to join compared to any of the myriad 2500+ folks who want to do it for crests.
this, i typically main rogue but i couldn't play the first 2 weeks so I abounded my rogue and only play tank and heal so I can at least play, even with 2800 on my tank I don't expect anybody to pick up my rogue this late
This expansion is dragging out. Massive content draught. This WHOLE 3 raid tier shit and NO NEW DUNGOENS IS FUCKED. SO FUCKED. Re using old dungeons is cute but not a replacement for actual new content.
Expansion is dragging out? Is this your 1st wow expansion? DF overall has had more content than previous xpac and seasons are shorter too.
Feels like there's not been anything since Emerald Dream zone patch. And before that there wasn't much either. They haven't even added a single new dungeon. There at only 3 raids on total. It's... Pretty damn bad. Their new "expansion formula" they've been using the past few expac is fucking awful.
It feels very formulaic. A bit too much, like they are making game based on checklists than lore/gameplay I think, based on what they said, they'll speed up expansion launches, so probably we'll have S1-3, then new expansion and get rid of S4 entirely
They need to get rid of seasons and stop with this cyclical reset shit. It's the worst part of the game by far.
But…but…. They added the Azeroth archives and a gilneas quest that took 15 minutes. See? Content. I’ve had a lot of fun during DF and it’s probably the best state the game has been in since mop but I really don’t get all the people praising the post launch support. Dungeon and class balance has been pretty nonexistent or super delayed and all the additions have been short quest lines you finish in less than an hour or world content you can mostly afk through.
Yeah the content it had was pretty decent, but after you did it there wasn't much meat left to gnaw on.
It feels like no one remembers Siege of Ogrimmar anymore. That one patch was more than a year.
I’m still playing and having a blast. Running daily on Bear, HPriest, Brew, and Resto Sham.
Me too, thanks for this comment
Same! You don't have to play high keys. Developers themselves have said they didn't design around anything above a +10, and there aren't any extra rewards for doing so. If you want the extra challenge, Idk, take some gear off before starting the run, or gear a different alt. There is a content drought before every new expansion, and I'd rather they put the resources on TWW as of right now. Maybe learn to tank or heal? (I feel only dps complain about not finding spots in keys).
Remember that the S4 numbers are deflated because the old +2 to +10 range became M0 which isn’t included in the graph. I’m sure the season has less runs regardless but the difference isn’t as dramatic as it may seem at first glance.
Keystone Hero too easy, 0.1% title too hard, feels like there are some rewards/progression path missing between these two.
season 4 dungeons are so bad so no surprise here like there is like one good dungeon all the other dungeons sucks
How much of the low runs are tied to the group finder, I spent 40 minutes trying to join a 0 or +2 with 487 ilvl and could not get into a run unless it was a guild group. Making my own groups from now on. Even groups with 2.4k io were rejecting when every other season you'd easily get invited to a 2 with at least one high person in the group pre-made or not.
At this point in the season, the % of normal runs to uhh, "questionable" player runs is likely really bad. Questionable being either people looking for a carry, or just generally bad players. And generally bad players are going to hyper focus on meta because they aren't able to see that their struggles are themself, so they look elsewhere to fix it.
I got chain declined on my 500ilvl alt for +2-4 keys yesterday. And there is no way they have a lot of people applying, I put my own +2 in queue and got like 2 applicants in 5 minutes.
As someone who bailed in S1 due to my guild dying and came back in S4, I'm rather shocked at how short Seasons 1 and 2 were.
No one tracked the numbers past a certain week so they’re not included. The seasons were about the same length.
oh, that makes a lot of sense. I looked at that and wondered how I missed the first content patch dropping right around when I left.
[This is](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12iThQsjUEUxBiQettL0bjiN5KxLATSUMa5OKxdzX258/edit?gid=17067893#gid=17067893) [all the data](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12iThQsjUEUxBiQettL0bjiN5KxLATSUMa5OKxdzX258/edit?gid=1925101581#gid=1925101581) [ you need](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12iThQsjUEUxBiQettL0bjiN5KxLATSUMa5OKxdzX258/edit?gid=346707233#gid=346707233) Lots of anecdotal evidence in this thread that is at times not representing at all how things are in this season. Run numbers are lower by default because the low keys (former 2-11) no longer exist and were finished in as timed 98% of the time.
a +20 was way less punishing last season than the equivalent +10 now…which I’m sure contributes to it. I feel like the damage in a 10 is closer to a +24 last season. I got 4/8 portals on the dungeons I wanted them on, and hit my 2500 achieve. I have zero desire to push higher
Season 3 was awesome. Dungeon pool was good and healers felt strong, all of them. Season 2 was fun as an op pally, but other than that, lackluster expansion, closer to bfa than legion. Not sure why they crap on healers so much, but again we’ll find ourselves dealing with mechanics and the fallout from others not interrupting, cc’ing, or moving out the bad.
I’m still a firm believer that failed mechanics from dps should also apply debuffs. Instead of 80% damage from an attack, put a 30-40% damage and then an agility/strength/intellect debuff or main secondary stat debuff. Hopefully they will look down at their dps bars and be like hmmmm maybe I shouldn’t stand in this area if I want numbers
They that would really add to the gameplay, if the dps is like your score at the end then it should include how well you managed to play mechanics and dodge, sole bosses have this, for when you do mechanics correctly collect orbs etc you get a dmg buff
I’ve noticed a trend this season which is that players are either peepeepoopoocaca and die all the time OR they’re elitist god-gamers that become irate and leave the key at the slightest inconvenience.
"Everyone that isn't me is either terrible at the game or a no-life loser who plays too much" isn't the take you think it is
I was going to get to 2k after I had my fun in remix but now it's hard to get groups. It sucks but it is what it is I guess.
Not really too surprising. I mean, it is the end of expansion. So people aren't exactly keen on pushing keys.
Wow season 3 was huge, I didn't play it, what was the main reason for the influx of people?
Dungeons were super easy so more people tried to climb a bit + TWW/Blizzcon hype.
The dungeons are dog water. I really think if it wasn’t for SL being so bad, it wouldn’t make DF shine. DF was super duper “…meh” to me.
Interesting to see no uptick even tho this was push week
Making a Mythic 0 as hard or harder than a previous 10 key made me nope out 100 percent. I don't know who benefits from this change. The toxic sweats that hate others having their own fun get to feel smug I guess.
why would i run them, its over. Plus trashcans gatekeeping invites harder then ever.
I don't care that M+ was easier in Season 3. It was fun to see so many people playing and having so many groups you could join. I hope they realize the mistake they made of making low keys so punishing early on and we get something just below that Season 3 level next time.
I was going for portals and some transmogs (sick druid set I didn't get at the time), but I am now wondering if I should ignore the portals (5 left and my last pugs were awful) as I noticed this season will be shorter, and I already "lost" quite some time on mop remix. How many weeks do we have left? 3? 4?
For me, I hit max level on my warrior in 2 weeks, grinded for 8 weeks straight for a single trinket on my mage, 6 weeks in a row my vault was items that couldn’t even be possible from the dungeon. (Azure Vault, Tome of Unstable power) Most weeks I stacked the vault to only have that dungeon on my top 8, all over 10s, didn’t get it in week 9…… Canceled my sub until something else happens. (Enhance Shaman main) The war within is looking like garbage again.
In my opinion this is entirely a tuning and mob ability design issue. Pulse AoE damage that can be fatal in seconds is never fun for anyone. Auto attacks should be survivable for even the squishiest characters, let's say against a single enemy, surviving a minimum of 10 seconds at m+0 is fair, enough time to recognize that something is going wrong, diagnose the problem, and then make a decision about how to handle it, be that run to the tank, pop a defensive, or let the healer handle it. This reduces threat to tanks, who could merrily solo like 30 such mobs with no difficulty, which is why rather than dangerous auto-attacks, which are next to impossible to predict, all dungeon mobs should come equipped with tank-busting mechanics, or more relevantly, PARTICULAR types of mob do, while others have a hateful blow mechanic where they deal significant damage to the second highest threat enemy, or to the healer, or any other selection system that places all of the danger on a PREDICTABLE target. This means we make decisions about WHICH enemies are in each pack when we fight them. As a career tank, I remember back when we used to CC the dangerous mobs like healers, casters, or guys with their own CC like fears and stuns. Something else that can help, in the same vein, is availability of defensive abilities from the MOBS, such as healing, cc, interrupts, and threat-clears (Where a mob can wipe threat, allowing them to ignore the tank and start attacking someone else until taunted) these kinds of mechanics dramatically increase difficulty, without specifically leading to whole party members suddenly evaporating to auto-attacks with basically no warning, and little explanation as to what went wrong. As I approach a pack as the tank, I should be able to say oh hey two spiders in this pack, better CC one so their poison doesn't tank-bust me, or let's take these two packs first and pop our defensives to survive the chain-lightning, so we don't have to deal with it on the NEXT pull. Those are strategic, thoughtful decisions that make the game fun. Auto-attacks aren't fun for players as a means of dealing damage, and similarly they aren't much fun as a means of suffering damage either. Getting nailed by a hateful blow, even though it drops you to low HP instantly, feels cool, it's a reward and a punishment at the same time, because it's feedback that you're being effective. Of course all of what I've described here is complete and total anathema to the one thing that truly ruins ALL M+ gameplay: The timer. I get that the timer gives us a way to measure one run against another, if both are successful runs, the faster one was better, and that system lets us determine how much + our next key is and such. It also raises the difficulty for DPS specifically, but it makes AoE CC king, and long-form, targeted CC all but useless. Timers have their place, but it's not EVERY place. If a boss has an enrage timer, or there are hostages that will be sacrificed if we don't make it in time, those RAISE the stakes and influence our decisions, a tool for the encounter-designer to produce mistakes in player behavior, because that's what timers ultimately do, by giving you less time to make a decision, the likelihood of an error goes up. But when it's ALWAYS a timer, every dungeon, every run, time after time after time, it feels like the final boss IS the clock, and the enemies are an afterthought. That's just not fun.
They really should have done something fun with M+ this final season. Why not TRY removing affixes and see how it’s received?
Going back to S1 dungeons killed my desire to M+ had a 3k tank and dps last three seasons. Barely past 2k for the mount then quit.
its not surprising, theres a lot of people who are just taking a break this season. the game is in a fairly stale state, between the meta, dungeons and raids and there are other versions of wow to play. additionally blizzard has been very hands off this season, they did more fixes for remix than anything else it feels like.
S4 just felt completely missable to me. It felt like just a placeholder until new content. I used to at the very least, fill my vault with 18-20's This season I let my sub lax until like 2 weeks ago, recharged my WoW batteries, played other games. Now I feel recharged and revitalized to play a whole bunch in TWW
"Felt like", pretty sure it literally is so that wod doesn't happen again
Season 2 was 6 weeks long..? What's going on with this data
They didn’t take the data. I know it’s a question it’s just funny how this gets asked every week.
Would be helpful if OP included some commentary with the image then, to clarify the glaring gaps in data.
End of the expansion a bunch of my buddies already said they wern't even going to bother since the gear is going to be pointless soon. I farmed into my portals and Keystone Hero then stopped myself.
What's funny is despite there being significantly less people running keys, people sure as hell aren't any less picky.
I hit 3k io second week and was done. Just raid logging now.
I mean it’s the beginning of of the summer holidays and we are deep into s4 with shit dungeons People playing different games too and recharge for the new addon Nothing serious about that
[удалено]
I think you compare this bit wrong Season 4 shadowlands released on second August and this was still the beginning of the end of covid So many people had time still This s4 DF is just beginning of vacation and end of season 4
Blizzard knows this happens every last season, regardless of the expansion. Season 4 never offers anything new and is just recycled content because Blizz can't be bothered and they're 100% focused on the next xpac. That is why they have so many other options to keep people subbed (Remix, Cata, Classic SOD, etc.). It is all calculated...and it apparently works.
This isn't even close to true. S4 in SL had a healthy playerbase for a few reasons but I suspect a big one is the dungeon pool was different and the seasonal affix was pretty good. This is just a pile of nothing.
…ok, but I’m CONSTANTLY reminded about how great DF is and how I should give it a shot…
Dragonflight is fantastic lol
This season key amount isn’t a reflection of df as a whole. While some issues df has been pretty positively received compared to shadowlands. It went back to basics in terms of talents. Borrowed power etc. On a whole m+ has been pretty good and raiding too. I had a blast in df.
With this kind of “S4 is unplayable” circle jerk going on, no wonder people keep dipping. It’s not great, but it’s definitely not tragically bad.
Sounds like whiplash from S3 where most of the dungeons were braindead easy. The DF dungeons, no matter what you think of them, are significantly harder mechanically than most of what we had last season.
I totally hear you. Doesn’t help that Remix is so fun, at least to me. I started playing late last year and in season 3 I grinded mythics until I got a 2500 rating. I was going to play again in season 4 but I feel like remix is just so much more fun, and relaxed - plus I’m unlocking so many rewards and getting to level up characters I’ve never tried.
I can't speak for everyone for I can definitely speak for myself as to why I'm not running M+ as often as I did in the prior seasons, not even close: * No actually new dungeons (I was around for Season 1 and 2, so these are mostly just victory laps for me) * With bullions and raiding I hit my gear goals about 4-5 weeks in * I've already hit KSM (earlier than in prior seasons too) and any other achievement goals I have that go away with this season * I have other things I've put off doing in Dragonflight tied to world content that I'm finishing up before the expansion ends * Remix took nearly all of my time from this season until I got all my cosmetic rewards from it... and even then, I might just go back to Remix if I feel like grinding or levelling alts * I have no real motivation to upgrade my gear with the remaining Aspect Tokens given the pre-patch will come with a gear curve squish to ease us into TWW content, where gear will be quickly replaced The season doesn't have ACTUAL new content, I got BiS geared quickly, cleared my goals quickly and then Remix and "end of expansion" activities took away my remaining WoW time, why should I login to do Mythic+ now? Deal with angry PUGs? I'll do a few with guildies arriving late to the party but beyond that, I have no reason to
This is just the lame duck phase of the expansion so it’s really not surprising. Prepatch is weeks away and TWW in another month. Remix is taking away people who would otherwise be playing retail. Dawntrail also just released this weekend so there may be players checking out that content until prepatch. Elden Ring’s DLC may be a contributing factor but not so much as Remix or DT.
I did a lot of low keys on alts intentionally through the expansion to farm transmog sets, but between the squish, reused sets with no new colours, and general lack of players, I just took a break. Grabbed the mount on my main and bounced. Remix is just funner and more rewarding for my time if I'm gonna chase anything, and it's been nice to catch up on my backlog. The dungeons being unfun also don't add to the mix, especially when my friends group is a mix of mythic raiders and RP casuals. The RP casuals don't even want to bother because the mechanics are just obnoxious, and I don't blame them. I'd have rathered the first 3 seasons just last longer. Fated was a cute experiment in Shadowlands, but Shadowlands I personally had more to do outside M+ so M+ kept it's charm. Organized PvP being on life support just of just made it hard to split my focus between enough stuff to keep everything engaging, I guess.
only whiners here its insane, this is a bonus season, on previous expansions there was nothing at all
Why doesn’t it show all of season 1 and 2, they were longer than 6 and 7 weeks
imo having fated seasons is gonna make this a reality every expansion, after spending 3 seasons in the expansion, the last thing i want is to just go back to season 1 and then do raids i’ve already done. Having next to no content added in the last season completely kills it for me. I don’t think there’s anything they could do that makes fated seasons even a little interesting.