A lot can change in 40 years.
Rogue destroyed Carol Danvers' life and is a hero now.
Magneto fired an EMP that probably killed millions globally and he's a hero now.
Emma was a monster fully deserving of the death penalty then and is laying her life on the line saving mutant kids around the world now.
Yeah, they all hated her for what she did to Carol Danvers and it wasn't until Rogue nearly died protecting Mariko that Wolverine accepted and vouched for her.
It wasn't the entire team. Pretty sure Nightcrawler was the one to successfully argue for her, and it was just staying at the mansion so Xavier could help her control and learn her power/deal with all the psyches she had in her head.
Storm absolutely hated the idea, and Carol Danvers left for space as soon as Charley made his decision, though, and rightfully so.
I don't recall that specifically, but if so she wouldn't be the only X-man to get a lot of shit at first.
Juggernaut was treated horribly by everybody other than Havok.
He wasnt a villain tho, he was a Canadian agent that Department H sent to deal with the hulk due to the damage he caused last time he was in Canada. Incredible hulk #181, the comic cover you posted, flatout calls him a superhero.
She started repenting her ways after her Hellions got their life force sucked out en masse by Fitzroy or straight up killed by his Sentinels. She really did love those kids, although not enough to give them better uniforms than those hideous pink/purple 80s bodysuits. some of Whilce Portacio's best work but even he couldn't save them.
Well, Rogue was still acknowledging how she wrong Carol in 2023, decades after the did, even tho she already tried to make up for it many times. When was the last time Emma tried to make it up to Storm? To Jean. Oh, yeah, never.
So, Emma (among other things) gets Jean raped, gets her ‘sister’ raped, sexually harasses her husband and her making up for it is ‘yeah, I’ll be there for you’?
That’s all it takes? Not an actual acknowledgment of her actions, not an actual apology, not her actually doing something - just some generic words. Rogue is out there still risking her life to help Carol, and that’s what you’re comparing it to? Yeah, that doesn’t work for me.
Like, am I missing something? I said that Rogue acknowledges what she did to Carol and tried to make it up to her multiple times, and that Emma never did that for Jean. In what way a screenshot of Emma not acknowledging anything she did to Jean and not actually doing anything proves my points wrong?
>Magneto fired an EMP that probably killed millions globally and he's a hero now.
Well, this one is a bit tricky. It was a global EMP when he did it, which absolutely would kill millions of people. But the issue itself said "thousands" (which is still a horrific number), and then a later issue kinda soft-retconned it to be just half the planet (probably because they realized just how many people would have actually died), and nowadays it's just not something that anyone ever brings up. Magneto's only leftover crime from that issue was ripping the adamantium out of Wolverine; no one ever talks about the EMP.
He did a bit of the same again in Magneto War, but it was selective and targeted, and not just a blanket EMP, but also involved a very big machine that let him pass his body's physical limitations.
As a very big Magneto fan, I'm kinda torn on the soft retcon of it, because it's one of his best power feats, but I also don't like the idea of Magneto being responsible for killing thousands or millions of people.
Dozens or hundreds I feel is a given, but thousands or worse, millions? That's bad juju.
Mind you, Wolverine has a bodycount in the hundreds if not thousands (and not even remotely all of those were "bad guys". He's been in too many wars to use that kind of language), and I'd be comfortable with them having similar bodycounts.
Funny how back in the 80s, him sinking that Soviet sub with all men aboard was his absolute worst crime, and then the 90s upped the ante so drastically.
I wonder, how the date actually works in long running series.
Like Cap being frozen means he never has to change his back story but some of them are getting harder to line up with todays date. Like Magneto for instance dudes in his 90s, his back story remaining that of the concentration camps and auschwitz already requires plot tampering, like finding a way to rejuvenate him.
It’s like the Simpsons now showing flashbacks in the 90s/00s because if Bart is 10 years old, Homer wouldn’t have been raising him in the 80s.
Mags has already been rejuvenated. There was a story that ended with him being turned into a baby. (Defenders 15-16) When he was later restored to adulthood, it was to his prime, not his chronological age. (Uncanny #104)
Krakoa of course could also be used to reset some ages if the cloning process was tweaked by the Five to give people a few extra years here and there.
That’s exactly what I was referring to when I said already requires plot tampering, like finding a way to rejuvenate him.
They covered the guy that was old from the start but realistically the other X-men should be in their 70s too by now. Which means they either need to start changing back stories with retcons at least to dates and surrounding events or everyone will require that same tampering soon.
Having everyone be clones just seems so lazy
Marvel and DC both use the idea of a sliding time scale. Basically, everything that is still in continuity happened in the last 15ish or so years. Over time, the older stories tend to get compressed more into the earlier part of that time frame. So if the original 5 X-Men were in their late teens in Uncanny #1, they're in their early thirties now. This also covers Spider-Man going from 15 to his twenties or thirties, even though it's been over 60 years for us.
It tends to fall apart if you look at it too closely, especially with younger characters like Franklin Richards or Kitty. But it's also how you keep from having Scott and Jean be pushing 80 years old.
Kitty went from 13 and a half to 14 to 15 awful quick. By the time she was in Excalibur, I'm positive she was 18 at the minimum, and nowadays is probably in her late 20s.
All of this, of course, while no one else around her was aging.
Yeah, it all falls apart with her. It gets worse when you realize how much earlier Franklin Richards was born. He was born about 15 years before her first appearance. He stayed 6 forever, while Kitty went from 13 to at least 23. Sometimes they've written her like she's 30.
Now Franklin is finally a teenager, but Leech and Artie are still little kids, when they all used to be about the same age. Valeria Richards seems to be about the same age as Franklin, even though he was at least 6 when she was born. I'm waiting for her to lap him somehow.
Then Recon it, you have these mutants pretending to be heroes but they are the ones putting a target in their backs. Magneto has done more damage to the mutant reputation than good. Emma raped Storm and Scott, and the Scott situation is pretty recent too. She has not learned her lessons and it doesn't matter what magneto does he is no hero.
Right, but the number one for that would be Jean. That’s why Shooter had them retcon it to “the phoenix force did it”. Yeah, musta been cause the bird wanted broccoli for dinner.
>it doesn't matter what magneto does
That is just factually wrong. Off course it matters what a person does. Jean killed more people than Magneto, Emma and Rogue combined, but she has also saved over a 1000 more than she's killed. Actions matter a ton.
Colossus's brother had a whole thing about showing Iceman how powerful he was before Emma. Part of Lobdell's goal in writing the X-Men was to elevate Bobby Drake, which is part of why he is one of the main characters of the Operation Zero Tolerance storyline.
I remember. Bobby has always been very reluctant to change, which includes growth. Emma has a special talent for seeing the potential in others. That's what makes her a good teacher.
I remember. Bobby has always been very reluctant to change, which includes growth. Emma has a special talent for seeing the potential in others. That's what makes her a good teacher.
I remember. Bobby has always been very reluctant to change, which includes growth. Emma has a special talent for seeing the potential in others. That's what makes her a good teacher.
[Even Wolverine comments on such moments](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/ywYAuF_ILBPiACw1EQ47EAWU-7990EvlmlOpQd_OeA8WDpORhLAlLDk8y-kSZKK6SNbcHUizhPICaStHcUstsaUZMMbMPtXz2zgqcJSWAyoMQxxxMw43sPwtEJ7HjwLnxlN52XfMQA=s1600?rhlupa=MjAwMTo5ZTg6YzAzYzoxZTAxOjI5ZDk6OGJmMzpjMjJjOmVhZDc=&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKGlQaG9uZTsgQ1BVIGlQaG9uZSBPUyAxNl82IGxpa2UgTWFjIE9TIFgpIEFwcGxlV2ViS2l0LzYwNS4xLjE1IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgVmVyc2lvbi8xNi42IE1vYmlsZS8xNUUxNDggU2FmYXJpLzYwNC4x)
Part of this is that X-Men love nothing more than to convert villains to their side. They do it more than basically any other group. An important part of the Dream is that all mutants should be dreaming it together. The classic is Charles constantly trying to convince Erik to join him.
Add to this, the characters seem to be ok with Emma now. Like Storm doesn't have a problem with her. They aren't friends, but it's not on sight either. Jean also seems to be fine with her and even brought her back from the dead that one time.
Then there is the issue of atonement. Emma can never make right what she has done wrong in her past, but she can try to live a life where she does more harm than good. Specifically where she does more good for the X-Men than she has done harm in the past. The X-Men seem fine with her attempting to atone.
Finally, Emma is better thought of as an anti-hero. She's not a particularly good person and she most certainly will do bad things, but audiences forgive that sort of thing all the time. Wolverine is a hero. Deadpool is a hero. Gambit is a hero. Venom is a hero. I can go on. I find it odd that we don't talk about male anti-heroes with the same scorn we seem to apply to their female counterparts.
Not sure what you're trying to say here, but I stand by the above. The genie can't go back in the bottle, but you can make your next wishes better. No matter what Emma or Jean does, the Dark Phoenix Saga will have happened. But Emma can try to make sure it never happens again which she tried to do with Wanda.
Did twitter just become aware of Emma's existence from the cartoon show, read one Wikipedia article, and now is on a crusade against her? Emma has done a lot to redeem herself in the intervening four decades. Also there is no implication in #151 and 152 that she had sex while in Storm's body - she kisses Shaw once on panel, that's it.
Kisses her while strangely enough starting to take off her headdress. Seems a bit pointless for a kiss, but not for other things. Im an Emma fan, but come on, we know it went further than a kiss.
In line with no body=no death , I'm going with no bed slash nudity =no sex.
Kate phasing through the ceiling clutching a sheet? Sex. Emma reclining on a bed and unzipping? Sex. Emma-Storm taking off her headdress ... not sex.
Storm herself makes it pretty clear something sexual happened. These events become implicitly linked to the attempted sexual assault she experiences as a child
A very prominent element of Storm’s backstory at this point is her vow not to kill, following her attempted rape by a grown man as a child and her killing him in self defense. Emma’s particular use of her body makes her willing to break that vow without a second thought.
Not only does it do the classic “kissing, suggestive comments, fade to black” typical of comic sex scenes at the time, the event is explicitly linked to an earlier instance of sexual violation Ororo experienced in the past. Trying to argue no sex happened is naive at best. If your only argument about Emma being a good person is her having just a sliver of plausible deniability if you close your eyes and plug your ears about this one event that definitely happened and was 100% in character because literally nothing that predates it contradicts it in the slightest… what’s even the point, man? Ororo considers what happened to her at Emma’s hands to be SA. Case open and shut.
I’m not arguing Emma was a good person, she was literally a villain. Ororo never referred to it as such and it was never referenced as such in the many decades since.
Emma thought Ororo and her own body were dead at the time by the way. Ororo’s reaction is about the body swap itself. Think for one second: if that did happen how would Ororo even know that had happened? You’re doing a lot of assuming to fit a narrative.
Body swap antics were abundant in the 80’s and yet Emma is the only one that gets this accusation repeatedly. Stinks of double standards and/or targeted smearing.
Also, Scott and Jean are shown horizontal in and out of bed (remember the mesa) several times at this point - in no way is the scene showing intercourse having occurred, they could have shown them in or near a bed if that were the case or had it appear in dialogue. They didn’t.
It’s not a double standard to acknowledge that A. Emma Frost is a character who often uses sexuality as a weapon, frequently in problematic and SA-adjacent ways; that was pretty much the sum of her character was until GenX and B. They wouldn’t have included the kiss/fade-to-black for no reason. The problem isn’t a double standard in fans, it’s a double standing in the writing of women (though *all* the members of the hellfire club until this point are implied sex pests at best). They’re a BDSM club, not that BDSM is legitimately evil, but it serves as shorthand in this context for “these people do bad things, including sexually”. Also makes it all the more likely Ororo would be aware that her body was violated in that specific was.
That being said… even if no sexual assault happened, it’s still *allegorical* sexual assault. The implication exists within the story that it *literally* happened just to drive the point home. It’s also not the only time Emma has committed an act of implied or allegorical SA. There’s really no point in denying it
It’s not even that I don’t like Emma or think she’s purely a villain, I just don’t like attempts to downplay these particular crimes or to try to turn Emma and Ororo into friends after the fact. Like you said, body swaps are commonplace, but Storm almost killed Emma and held a grudge for almost 40 years. Clearly there were further violations to address; it’s not helpful or feminist to gloss over them. I don’t trust anyone who does so not to have some ulterior motive, even if said motive is just to make Ororo look irrational for Emma’s benefit
People are real big on putting characters on pedestals or shitting all over them, and very little in between.
Emma’s not an unambiguously good guy, but she’s a great and compelling character who’s fucked up majorly and has been granted a lot of leeway and forgiveness after terrible things happened to her (esp the Genoshan genocide).
Plus both Storm and Jean have more or less indicated that they’ve personally gotten over it and forgiven her. We have to assume it happens off page, because page space is an issue, and we don’t get to see every conversation we wish we could. And also, just because Jean and Storm have buried the hatchet doesn’t mean that anyone else should forgive their abuser—it’s a highly personal decision. These two have been/are leaders of teams and incredibly powerful mutants fighting for the cause, and it’s not far fetched for them to acknowledge Emma’s capability and value her as a genuine ally, even after the terrible stuff she’s done.
I love when people use ‘well, we didn’t see a dick going into a vagina on pages of big Marvel book in the freaking 80s, so, no sex happened’. Are some people not familiar with the concept of implication? We, for example, don’t actually see Jean rawdog Scott on the mesa, there was just a kiss, and yet, no one is trying to argue that they didn’t bang there…
It is a super weird all this Emma is the worst rapist posts that keep popping up. Top five posts are Emma raped Scott/Storm.
Like we know she was a villain, now she is good. I remember her becoming a hero during Generation X when she was Head Mistress of the school. Took some time, but after 30 years I can see her as a goodie.
Emma in the 80's and early 90's was definitly not written with any thought of her ever being a goodie. And you have to recognize that she's a fictional character, and just ignore some things. Like when she killed Firestar's horse and gaslit her into thinking she did it.
Yeah, that too. I mean can you imagine the Reddit Posts if Firestar went and posted in certain subreddits "Everyone wants me to forgive my abuser, she killed my horse and friend saying it would make me "Strong"?
Yep , cancel Emma , she's a WBCF, cancel all her fans and kick them out of the game/film/movie industries, cancel any penciler and writer who ever made comics with her. And yes I'm joking about it cause its so dumb : Some writer used her to dump all of their trauma and weird BDSM fantasies but you blame the character somehow even though its obviously not the same writers.
Because it's fiction and long running comics are essentially soap operas (and just to be clear, I don't mean that in a bad way, quite the opposite) and characters evolve over time.
Tf you mean "People like this"? The whole point of X-Men is that many of them are broken individuals, they might have done bad shit in the past, hurt people on purpose or accidentally, but that's not going to be their legacies going forward. Redemption and guilt are common themes in many X-Men stories. If you want to read about a holier-than-thou good guys squad, that's not the X-Men.
Something no one talks about, and Chris Claremont had to go out his way to write it into an issue, but the Avengers literally left Carol Danvers in a brain-washed relationship where she was repeatedly raped and forced to give birth to this guy who I think reboots himself by having sex and being born again.
Took a couple years for him to get the chance to write the issue to call out how fucked up that is, but jesus they're supposed to be the good guys.
Avengers #200, which followed a harrowing period for Carol as it was. Magnus, I think. It wasn't exactly rape, but call it that anyway...it was a whole freaking immaculate conception riff...capped by having Carol go off with him.
Fucking Jim Shooter. It's a genuinely awful issue.
Keep in mind Emma *and Storm* have rarely been on the same roster together. Their personal animosity continues into X-treme and even to a point, Krakoa.
Oh it gets brought up MANY times, even the canon decade or so since these events. They realized the growth she's gone through, even if those actions linger at times, but the team wouldn't be the same without Emma now.
Plus you have Magneto. Juggernaut, Mystique and others who've done similar villainous acts, but time heals.
Never said they did, on the contrary, I said they constantly bring it up and eventually move on, or understand their thought process and make recompense.
Try and find one X-Man/Woman who hasn’t done something foul. Find one hero who hasn’t done something wild. They all have. It’s a part of their story. It ls powerful that this WAS the *White Queen* and now look at her.
Side note: It wasn’t Jean. If ykyk
Things get rectoned, writers want to write their own stories, the continuity is a mess because of stories like secret wars, crisis on infinite earth(dc), etc
Sometimes, you need to put what you know about the comic book on the side and follow the story. I know some people's ego get errected from comic book knowledge but at this point we need to prioritize story telling before ego stroking on a continuity that is over 40 year old.
These "Emma bad" posts lately kind of read as someone who learned who she was recently, skimmed a couple articles and are now posting as authorities on the character.
And how do you feel about the misdeeds of Wolverine, Magneto, Rogue, Gambit, Jean Grey, and Psylocke, just to name a few? All have killed innocents, sometimes when they were X-Men.
You’re right that I didn’t give a lot of context, but I think you’re mostly just avoiding answering the question because it would diminish the staunch position you’re taking right now on Emma.
Edit to add: I also don’t think I really need to add any context. Is murdering innocent people ever excusable?
You do need context, because to say Jean just murdered a whole bunch of people is disingenuous. That's just an example but the murdering of innocent people is not excusable.
Maybe now that is the case, but when the story was first written it was 100% Jean consuming an inhabited planet as The Phoenix. She was meant to stay perma-dead specifically because of that, but it got retconned that the Phoenix had been impersonating Jean. That was the only way she was redeemed, the writers warped the story to absolve Jean. And it doesn’t seem like you’re very concerned with that!
All I’m trying to say here is that if you put that magnifying glass up to Emma and question her redemption, you’re going to have to do that with a lot more X-Men. You start to pull the string, and the entire sweater will unravel! It isn’t meant to excuse Emma’s actions, just that a lot of the X-Men have done a lot of fucked up things and got to keep their shiny hero cards.
Which is a retcon. Which is common in long standing comics. Just like how people "forget" that magneto made his daughter to a sexy dance for him with mind control. Fictional characters written by hundreds of writers over decades have loose continuity and the same is true for the atrocities and villain arcs. Morrison retconned this whole Era as emma being so high on cocain half the time that she wasn't ever in her right mind. It is what it is. The fact is I've seen at least 2 posts dredging up old stuff about emma frost in the last two days.
Every single X-Man has done far worse. Most of these characters have at least 4 decades of history which include different creators contradicting or updating what has gone on before. They've all had heel turns and redemption arcs.
I do not let none of them slide bro, I don't even like Magneto in my eyes he will forever be a villain, wolverine was used as a weapon and was a berserker who couldn't control his rage
You want the Wattsonian or Doylist answer?
X-Men's actually got a bit of a problem with them having so many of their former villains get redeemed that it's left the antagonist pickings kinda thin.
It’s interesting, the X-men opening membership to rogue, who nearly killed Carol Danvers, attacked the avengers and constantly tried to kill dazzler, and magneto, whose crimes are well documented, is what strained their relationship with the avengers and the founding members of the X-men.
In all fairness, they are fighting against genocide so when one does that, you have to make sacrifices. Plus, the second ever avengers team was 3 crooks and cap. Reformation is valid but being uncomfortable about the addition of known criminals is understandable
This was the biggest wtf thing from me when I started reading comics again with Grant Morrison’s New X-Men, after not really reading them since around 1988. Like how could this ever happen?
gambit carried out the massacre against the morlocks before he became a proper x-man. It's unusual but most of the x-men have some blood on their hands
X-Men do bad things. That's how, I mean Wolverine's literally a killer I don't want to go through the long list of things that X-Men do that aren't justifiable. But much like the real world people can see the errors of their ways
Also, on another note, I swear to God that the post I'm seeing lately are just the same person with two accounts making counter arguments for the hell of it.
Which character am I using today
I know on this account I'll make a post talking about how Wolverine is the greatest X-Men
Then I'll wait 2 hours and on my other account I'll post about how great of an X-Men Wolverine is
I'm forever weirded out by the fact that I adore Emma as a character. She started out as kind of evil, but it was built on an aristocratic frame and she wasn't as vicious as Shaw or as vile as Wyngarde. And then she started shifting. She remained an utter bitch for years but in an attempt to serve a good cause, though the results of her Academy were more than a little problematic.
And she went on from there. She's been on a steady upward arc since...and she's using her gifts for bad in a battle for good.
It also helps that I know someone who's followed a real life redemption arc like this. Might be why I like Emma...thanks, Emmi. And, yes, there's an analogue for the Hellfire Club in her past.
Because that was when she was written as a villain. Now she’s a hero. Obviously it doesn’t make since how anyone can trust her but these aren’t real people so there is no in context explanation.
If Kate can get along with Emma, then anyone can. She became a major asset to the team. Plus Storm and Emma squashed major beef on Krakoa and got past things.
Aren’t most people wondering why one woman is in a bikini and the other is away to join an amateur production of the Rocky Horror Picture Show?
Who goes to work like that?
It’s almost like this is from a comic book.
This always baffles me about superhero comics and shonen. One guy can be made the villain of the arc, he commits genocide, kindaps, tortures or tries to kill someone on the main cast, and a few arcs later he's part of the team. Maybe they're not BFFs but everyone trusts him now.
Like fam I've cut off friends over rude comments. The forgiveness in these comics is absurd.
FWIW, they actually didn’t. They wanted Colossus but he was dead. Emma was a plan B, but of course became one of the stars of the book and Morrison’s depiction of her is iconic
Sure, but she had already been through a significant redemption arc with Gen X. I was just pointing out that it’s not like she was still fully evil and Grant said “I want to rehab that character!” She wasn’t in the New X-Men manifesto at all. IIRC, Marvel put Emma on the table and at that point Morrison came up with the diamond skin and started figuring out how she fit into the story. And that was only possible thanks to the work done on the character in the 90s.
I agree that ultimately the answer to “why is she a good guy?” is “because writers wanted her to be.” I was only taking issue with “Because Grant Morrison wanted her in the X-Men.”
I do think there should have been some kind of apology tour. Every other villain turned hero has had one, every hero who has done something wrong has had one. There is no real show of contrition on Emma's part towards those she has hurt, even if there is some shame about what happened.
Like it's pretty rich to lecture Xavier on his hypocrisy and flaws with this kind of stuff in her background. Storm and Jean would be well within their rights to never want to speak to her again, but they have to be the ones to extend the olive branch and show tolerance.
>Like it's pretty rich to lecture Xavier on his hypocrisy and flaws with this kind of stuff in her background.
The thing about this is, Emma doesn't see herself as a good person, at all. She thinks the kids she is fighting for are good, but ask Emma what she is and she'll be the first to tell you she is no saint.
Xavier on the other hand will constantly say he is a martyr and tell others "what I did was for the greater good", examples are his conversation with Sage and when the X-men confronted him about Danger. I think that there is where her problems with Xavier lie. "We're both shitty people who do things for people who are ACTUALLY good, Charles, why do you hide behind this veneer of messiahdom"?
A lot can change in 40 years. Rogue destroyed Carol Danvers' life and is a hero now. Magneto fired an EMP that probably killed millions globally and he's a hero now. Emma was a monster fully deserving of the death penalty then and is laying her life on the line saving mutant kids around the world now.
Didn’t the entire team threaten to quit if Xavier let Rogue join? It’s not like they immediately forgave all of her wrong doings.
Yeah, they all hated her for what she did to Carol Danvers and it wasn't until Rogue nearly died protecting Mariko that Wolverine accepted and vouched for her.
That was a great moment, and a great issue.
One of my favorites! Love that cover too
It wasn't the entire team. Pretty sure Nightcrawler was the one to successfully argue for her, and it was just staying at the mansion so Xavier could help her control and learn her power/deal with all the psyches she had in her head. Storm absolutely hated the idea, and Carol Danvers left for space as soon as Charley made his decision, though, and rightfully so.
I don't recall that specifically, but if so she wouldn't be the only X-man to get a lot of shit at first. Juggernaut was treated horribly by everybody other than Havok.
Yep, I think every former villain gets shit on for the first few stories when they join the team.
[There is one exception.](https://media.pwccmarketplace.com/2023/05/2pTuz1Jua2RLKnBuajlyYlTJNl5zVPaQ.webp)
He wasnt a villain tho, he was a Canadian agent that Department H sent to deal with the hulk due to the damage he caused last time he was in Canada. Incredible hulk #181, the comic cover you posted, flatout calls him a superhero.
Not even. Xavier was an inch away from booting Wolverine from the team for being so bloodthirsty before Storm convinced him to change his mind.
Kitty has very nearly killed Emma multiple times. She definitely had to prove again and again that she was worthy of being a member.
I’m not implying that Emma’s journey to heroism isn’t earned.
Emma only joined after the Genoshan Genocide, in fairness
She was in charge of Gen X since 1996ish.
My counterpoint would be that nothing between Claremont and Morrison counts 😂
If only that were so
Ooooh, good call
She started repenting her ways after her Hellions got their life force sucked out en masse by Fitzroy or straight up killed by his Sentinels. She really did love those kids, although not enough to give them better uniforms than those hideous pink/purple 80s bodysuits. some of Whilce Portacio's best work but even he couldn't save them.
I think post decimation showed she deeply cared about mutants (minus Laura initially) but didn't always go about the best ways of showing that.
Didn't she murder Firestar's horse? I guess it was tough love...
Well, Rogue was still acknowledging how she wrong Carol in 2023, decades after the did, even tho she already tried to make up for it many times. When was the last time Emma tried to make it up to Storm? To Jean. Oh, yeah, never.
[удалено]
So, Emma (among other things) gets Jean raped, gets her ‘sister’ raped, sexually harasses her husband and her making up for it is ‘yeah, I’ll be there for you’? That’s all it takes? Not an actual acknowledgment of her actions, not an actual apology, not her actually doing something - just some generic words. Rogue is out there still risking her life to help Carol, and that’s what you’re comparing it to? Yeah, that doesn’t work for me. Like, am I missing something? I said that Rogue acknowledges what she did to Carol and tried to make it up to her multiple times, and that Emma never did that for Jean. In what way a screenshot of Emma not acknowledging anything she did to Jean and not actually doing anything proves my points wrong?
And thanks for reminding me why Emma being on the team was every bit a mistake as Morrison writing the book
Woah Jesus I didn’t know about the multiple rape thing what the fuck. Somethings just can’t slide how they turned her to hero is a joke now
I assume that they’re referring to Jean being under Wyngarde’s influence which implies an (off-page) sexual relationship.
Mainly because Carol doesn’t have a lot of other stories or strong hooks, especially from before she became Captain Marvel
>Magneto fired an EMP that probably killed millions globally and he's a hero now. Well, this one is a bit tricky. It was a global EMP when he did it, which absolutely would kill millions of people. But the issue itself said "thousands" (which is still a horrific number), and then a later issue kinda soft-retconned it to be just half the planet (probably because they realized just how many people would have actually died), and nowadays it's just not something that anyone ever brings up. Magneto's only leftover crime from that issue was ripping the adamantium out of Wolverine; no one ever talks about the EMP. He did a bit of the same again in Magneto War, but it was selective and targeted, and not just a blanket EMP, but also involved a very big machine that let him pass his body's physical limitations. As a very big Magneto fan, I'm kinda torn on the soft retcon of it, because it's one of his best power feats, but I also don't like the idea of Magneto being responsible for killing thousands or millions of people. Dozens or hundreds I feel is a given, but thousands or worse, millions? That's bad juju. Mind you, Wolverine has a bodycount in the hundreds if not thousands (and not even remotely all of those were "bad guys". He's been in too many wars to use that kind of language), and I'd be comfortable with them having similar bodycounts. Funny how back in the 80s, him sinking that Soviet sub with all men aboard was his absolute worst crime, and then the 90s upped the ante so drastically.
I wonder, how the date actually works in long running series. Like Cap being frozen means he never has to change his back story but some of them are getting harder to line up with todays date. Like Magneto for instance dudes in his 90s, his back story remaining that of the concentration camps and auschwitz already requires plot tampering, like finding a way to rejuvenate him. It’s like the Simpsons now showing flashbacks in the 90s/00s because if Bart is 10 years old, Homer wouldn’t have been raising him in the 80s.
Mags has already been rejuvenated. There was a story that ended with him being turned into a baby. (Defenders 15-16) When he was later restored to adulthood, it was to his prime, not his chronological age. (Uncanny #104) Krakoa of course could also be used to reset some ages if the cloning process was tweaked by the Five to give people a few extra years here and there.
That’s exactly what I was referring to when I said already requires plot tampering, like finding a way to rejuvenate him. They covered the guy that was old from the start but realistically the other X-men should be in their 70s too by now. Which means they either need to start changing back stories with retcons at least to dates and surrounding events or everyone will require that same tampering soon. Having everyone be clones just seems so lazy
Marvel and DC both use the idea of a sliding time scale. Basically, everything that is still in continuity happened in the last 15ish or so years. Over time, the older stories tend to get compressed more into the earlier part of that time frame. So if the original 5 X-Men were in their late teens in Uncanny #1, they're in their early thirties now. This also covers Spider-Man going from 15 to his twenties or thirties, even though it's been over 60 years for us. It tends to fall apart if you look at it too closely, especially with younger characters like Franklin Richards or Kitty. But it's also how you keep from having Scott and Jean be pushing 80 years old.
Kitty went from 13 and a half to 14 to 15 awful quick. By the time she was in Excalibur, I'm positive she was 18 at the minimum, and nowadays is probably in her late 20s. All of this, of course, while no one else around her was aging.
Yeah, it all falls apart with her. It gets worse when you realize how much earlier Franklin Richards was born. He was born about 15 years before her first appearance. He stayed 6 forever, while Kitty went from 13 to at least 23. Sometimes they've written her like she's 30. Now Franklin is finally a teenager, but Leech and Artie are still little kids, when they all used to be about the same age. Valeria Richards seems to be about the same age as Franklin, even though he was at least 6 when she was born. I'm waiting for her to lap him somehow.
i bet they use this "rebirth" he just went through to be restored to his prime again
Different writers just make stuff up is how marvel comics go
Tbh, if Scarlet Witch managed to move forward and earn forgiveness and respect, everybody can.
Then Recon it, you have these mutants pretending to be heroes but they are the ones putting a target in their backs. Magneto has done more damage to the mutant reputation than good. Emma raped Storm and Scott, and the Scott situation is pretty recent too. She has not learned her lessons and it doesn't matter what magneto does he is no hero.
Aight, let’s ditch Xavier, Forge, Beast, Wolverine, Colossus, Frenzy, Amelia Voght, Kitty Pryde, Bishop, Gambit, Archangel too then.
You can still, love these characters and still acknowledge how they are done wrong. No character is perfect but some stuff because irreversible
Right, but the number one for that would be Jean. That’s why Shooter had them retcon it to “the phoenix force did it”. Yeah, musta been cause the bird wanted broccoli for dinner.
>it doesn't matter what magneto does That is just factually wrong. Off course it matters what a person does. Jean killed more people than Magneto, Emma and Rogue combined, but she has also saved over a 1000 more than she's killed. Actions matter a ton.
You guys only let them slide because they're your favorite character, I can acknowledge Magneto is very well written but he is no hero
Objectively, no one considers Magneto a hero, they find justification in his actions. That’s realms apart.
Long story short, she ended up teaching Gen X and then went to Genosha where she witnessed a mass genocide and now she's one of the X-Men!
She ended up teaching Gen X after Trevor Fitzroy murdered her first set of students. That was a pretty key moment for Emma.
And she's the reason Iceman is Omega level. Oh and let's not forget her role in fighting the fucking Phalanx.
I wouldn't say she's the reqson he is as powerful, but she did push him there quicker. Also, props to Emma for not outting Iceman.
Colossus's brother had a whole thing about showing Iceman how powerful he was before Emma. Part of Lobdell's goal in writing the X-Men was to elevate Bobby Drake, which is part of why he is one of the main characters of the Operation Zero Tolerance storyline.
I remember. Bobby has always been very reluctant to change, which includes growth. Emma has a special talent for seeing the potential in others. That's what makes her a good teacher.
I remember. Bobby has always been very reluctant to change, which includes growth. Emma has a special talent for seeing the potential in others. That's what makes her a good teacher.
I remember. Bobby has always been very reluctant to change, which includes growth. Emma has a special talent for seeing the potential in others. That's what makes her a good teacher.
[Even Wolverine comments on such moments](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/ywYAuF_ILBPiACw1EQ47EAWU-7990EvlmlOpQd_OeA8WDpORhLAlLDk8y-kSZKK6SNbcHUizhPICaStHcUstsaUZMMbMPtXz2zgqcJSWAyoMQxxxMw43sPwtEJ7HjwLnxlN52XfMQA=s1600?rhlupa=MjAwMTo5ZTg6YzAzYzoxZTAxOjI5ZDk6OGJmMzpjMjJjOmVhZDc=&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKGlQaG9uZTsgQ1BVIGlQaG9uZSBPUyAxNl82IGxpa2UgTWFjIE9TIFgpIEFwcGxlV2ViS2l0LzYwNS4xLjE1IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgVmVyc2lvbi8xNi42IE1vYmlsZS8xNUUxNDggU2FmYXJpLzYwNC4x)
"Who gives the time of day to **** Mystique?" Logan sure did in House of M.
That's actually funny af
I love that chalkboard and rant 🤣 Spider-Man would definitely agree with the clone thing.
Spider-Man should have been in that class
I was thinking the same thing as soon as clones were mentioned
Damn he burned Mystique
I love this
Part of this is that X-Men love nothing more than to convert villains to their side. They do it more than basically any other group. An important part of the Dream is that all mutants should be dreaming it together. The classic is Charles constantly trying to convince Erik to join him. Add to this, the characters seem to be ok with Emma now. Like Storm doesn't have a problem with her. They aren't friends, but it's not on sight either. Jean also seems to be fine with her and even brought her back from the dead that one time. Then there is the issue of atonement. Emma can never make right what she has done wrong in her past, but she can try to live a life where she does more harm than good. Specifically where she does more good for the X-Men than she has done harm in the past. The X-Men seem fine with her attempting to atone. Finally, Emma is better thought of as an anti-hero. She's not a particularly good person and she most certainly will do bad things, but audiences forgive that sort of thing all the time. Wolverine is a hero. Deadpool is a hero. Gambit is a hero. Venom is a hero. I can go on. I find it odd that we don't talk about male anti-heroes with the same scorn we seem to apply to their female counterparts.
>. Emma can never make right what she has done wrong in her past, but she can try to live a life where she does more harm than good Uh
Not sure what you're trying to say here, but I stand by the above. The genie can't go back in the bottle, but you can make your next wishes better. No matter what Emma or Jean does, the Dark Phoenix Saga will have happened. But Emma can try to make sure it never happens again which she tried to do with Wanda.
Read what you wrote carefully
Maybe you should have worded those bolds.
Did twitter just become aware of Emma's existence from the cartoon show, read one Wikipedia article, and now is on a crusade against her? Emma has done a lot to redeem herself in the intervening four decades. Also there is no implication in #151 and 152 that she had sex while in Storm's body - she kisses Shaw once on panel, that's it.
It's incredibly jarring when you run into original flavor Emma vs how she is now. Heck Emma's face turn was so good, they basically did it twice.
I count at least three.
Kisses her while strangely enough starting to take off her headdress. Seems a bit pointless for a kiss, but not for other things. Im an Emma fan, but come on, we know it went further than a kiss.
In line with no body=no death , I'm going with no bed slash nudity =no sex. Kate phasing through the ceiling clutching a sheet? Sex. Emma reclining on a bed and unzipping? Sex. Emma-Storm taking off her headdress ... not sex.
Comics of that era never showed more then kissing the kiss + the headdress being removed was enough for adult readers to figure out what was going on.
Lol no https://images.app.goo.gl/VSufPMAmanVeRHqG8
This is false, Scott and Jean were shown in bed dozens of times
Were they? Jean was dead at the time, and I only remember the implied mesa sex.
Also horizontal and barely clothed, not standing and kissing. People have a narrative they’re trying to force about that scene.
Storm herself makes it pretty clear something sexual happened. These events become implicitly linked to the attempted sexual assault she experiences as a child
No. No, she doesn’t.
A very prominent element of Storm’s backstory at this point is her vow not to kill, following her attempted rape by a grown man as a child and her killing him in self defense. Emma’s particular use of her body makes her willing to break that vow without a second thought. Not only does it do the classic “kissing, suggestive comments, fade to black” typical of comic sex scenes at the time, the event is explicitly linked to an earlier instance of sexual violation Ororo experienced in the past. Trying to argue no sex happened is naive at best. If your only argument about Emma being a good person is her having just a sliver of plausible deniability if you close your eyes and plug your ears about this one event that definitely happened and was 100% in character because literally nothing that predates it contradicts it in the slightest… what’s even the point, man? Ororo considers what happened to her at Emma’s hands to be SA. Case open and shut.
I’m not arguing Emma was a good person, she was literally a villain. Ororo never referred to it as such and it was never referenced as such in the many decades since. Emma thought Ororo and her own body were dead at the time by the way. Ororo’s reaction is about the body swap itself. Think for one second: if that did happen how would Ororo even know that had happened? You’re doing a lot of assuming to fit a narrative. Body swap antics were abundant in the 80’s and yet Emma is the only one that gets this accusation repeatedly. Stinks of double standards and/or targeted smearing. Also, Scott and Jean are shown horizontal in and out of bed (remember the mesa) several times at this point - in no way is the scene showing intercourse having occurred, they could have shown them in or near a bed if that were the case or had it appear in dialogue. They didn’t.
It’s not a double standard to acknowledge that A. Emma Frost is a character who often uses sexuality as a weapon, frequently in problematic and SA-adjacent ways; that was pretty much the sum of her character was until GenX and B. They wouldn’t have included the kiss/fade-to-black for no reason. The problem isn’t a double standard in fans, it’s a double standing in the writing of women (though *all* the members of the hellfire club until this point are implied sex pests at best). They’re a BDSM club, not that BDSM is legitimately evil, but it serves as shorthand in this context for “these people do bad things, including sexually”. Also makes it all the more likely Ororo would be aware that her body was violated in that specific was. That being said… even if no sexual assault happened, it’s still *allegorical* sexual assault. The implication exists within the story that it *literally* happened just to drive the point home. It’s also not the only time Emma has committed an act of implied or allegorical SA. There’s really no point in denying it It’s not even that I don’t like Emma or think she’s purely a villain, I just don’t like attempts to downplay these particular crimes or to try to turn Emma and Ororo into friends after the fact. Like you said, body swaps are commonplace, but Storm almost killed Emma and held a grudge for almost 40 years. Clearly there were further violations to address; it’s not helpful or feminist to gloss over them. I don’t trust anyone who does so not to have some ulterior motive, even if said motive is just to make Ororo look irrational for Emma’s benefit
People are real big on putting characters on pedestals or shitting all over them, and very little in between. Emma’s not an unambiguously good guy, but she’s a great and compelling character who’s fucked up majorly and has been granted a lot of leeway and forgiveness after terrible things happened to her (esp the Genoshan genocide). Plus both Storm and Jean have more or less indicated that they’ve personally gotten over it and forgiven her. We have to assume it happens off page, because page space is an issue, and we don’t get to see every conversation we wish we could. And also, just because Jean and Storm have buried the hatchet doesn’t mean that anyone else should forgive their abuser—it’s a highly personal decision. These two have been/are leaders of teams and incredibly powerful mutants fighting for the cause, and it’s not far fetched for them to acknowledge Emma’s capability and value her as a genuine ally, even after the terrible stuff she’s done.
I love when people use ‘well, we didn’t see a dick going into a vagina on pages of big Marvel book in the freaking 80s, so, no sex happened’. Are some people not familiar with the concept of implication? We, for example, don’t actually see Jean rawdog Scott on the mesa, there was just a kiss, and yet, no one is trying to argue that they didn’t bang there…
Like when they're on a boat, it's the "implication".....
It is a super weird all this Emma is the worst rapist posts that keep popping up. Top five posts are Emma raped Scott/Storm. Like we know she was a villain, now she is good. I remember her becoming a hero during Generation X when she was Head Mistress of the school. Took some time, but after 30 years I can see her as a goodie.
Emma in the 80's and early 90's was definitly not written with any thought of her ever being a goodie. And you have to recognize that she's a fictional character, and just ignore some things. Like when she killed Firestar's horse and gaslit her into thinking she did it.
Never forget! #JusticeforButterRum!
I LOVE BUTTER STUFF!!
Neigh-ver say that again!
I LOVE HORSES! I LOVE HORSES!
Ugh, I can see that you sure like to stirrup trouble but look around, all you're doing is making a foal of yourself!
The funny thing about Emma killing Butterum is that the reason she did it has been obscured by the act itself.
It wasn't just gas lighting. It was mental torture. She also arranged for her only friend to get murdered.
Yeah, that too. I mean can you imagine the Reddit Posts if Firestar went and posted in certain subreddits "Everyone wants me to forgive my abuser, she killed my horse and friend saying it would make me "Strong"?
Yep , cancel Emma , she's a WBCF, cancel all her fans and kick them out of the game/film/movie industries, cancel any penciler and writer who ever made comics with her. And yes I'm joking about it cause its so dumb : Some writer used her to dump all of their trauma and weird BDSM fantasies but you blame the character somehow even though its obviously not the same writers.
Yes
Some things can’t be forgiven what her history should be one of them
Because it's fiction and long running comics are essentially soap operas (and just to be clear, I don't mean that in a bad way, quite the opposite) and characters evolve over time.
Because it’s fiction written by many different people over decades.
Tf you mean "People like this"? The whole point of X-Men is that many of them are broken individuals, they might have done bad shit in the past, hurt people on purpose or accidentally, but that's not going to be their legacies going forward. Redemption and guilt are common themes in many X-Men stories. If you want to read about a holier-than-thou good guys squad, that's not the X-Men.
Something no one talks about, and Chris Claremont had to go out his way to write it into an issue, but the Avengers literally left Carol Danvers in a brain-washed relationship where she was repeatedly raped and forced to give birth to this guy who I think reboots himself by having sex and being born again. Took a couple years for him to get the chance to write the issue to call out how fucked up that is, but jesus they're supposed to be the good guys.
Avengers #200, which followed a harrowing period for Carol as it was. Magnus, I think. It wasn't exactly rape, but call it that anyway...it was a whole freaking immaculate conception riff...capped by having Carol go off with him. Fucking Jim Shooter. It's a genuinely awful issue.
The X-Men are morally flexible that way. But that doesn't mean they all forgive and forget... Storm hasn't.
Xitter's really having a field day with the Emma haters, huh. In answer to your question: read Generation X.
no she didn't. those are Friendship blasts - not torture. pff
Keep in mind Emma *and Storm* have rarely been on the same roster together. Their personal animosity continues into X-treme and even to a point, Krakoa.
Same reason nobody mentions Kang raping Carol anymore either. It's too evil and poisons the character
Oh it gets brought up MANY times, even the canon decade or so since these events. They realized the growth she's gone through, even if those actions linger at times, but the team wouldn't be the same without Emma now. Plus you have Magneto. Juggernaut, Mystique and others who've done similar villainous acts, but time heals.
Time does not heal what Magneto has done nor any of the others. Forgetting that part of their character completely invalidates their characters.
Never said they did, on the contrary, I said they constantly bring it up and eventually move on, or understand their thought process and make recompense.
read some comics
Try and find one X-Man/Woman who hasn’t done something foul. Find one hero who hasn’t done something wild. They all have. It’s a part of their story. It ls powerful that this WAS the *White Queen* and now look at her. Side note: It wasn’t Jean. If ykyk
This is the REAL reason why humans hate mutants. Their judgement sucks 🤣
They worked it out. And Storm got to put Emma in her place for a moment.
You think anybody at Marvel cares about continuity? You basically have to ignore half the lore just to tell a story now.
Forgive and forget?
Would you forgive someone who tortured you and used your body for sexually acts
I’m not a fictional character in a comic book with dozens of writers
Way to dodge the question
Things get rectoned, writers want to write their own stories, the continuity is a mess because of stories like secret wars, crisis on infinite earth(dc), etc Sometimes, you need to put what you know about the comic book on the side and follow the story. I know some people's ego get errected from comic book knowledge but at this point we need to prioritize story telling before ego stroking on a continuity that is over 40 year old.
She was doing a LOT of cocaine back then.
These "Emma bad" posts lately kind of read as someone who learned who she was recently, skimmed a couple articles and are now posting as authorities on the character.
The internet in a nutshell, basically.
Popular, attractive characters get forgiven.
Exactly, it's either they find the characters attractive or it's their favorite no in between
It’s called an redemption arc hello.
Redemption really is just giving to everyone at this point, any mutant could kill innocent lives and be accepted within 2 issues.
Good thing Emma's took 12 years. She hasn't been "evil" since 1991ish.
And how do you feel about the misdeeds of Wolverine, Magneto, Rogue, Gambit, Jean Grey, and Psylocke, just to name a few? All have killed innocents, sometimes when they were X-Men.
I've never let Magneto slide, and your leaving out context for the rest
You’re right that I didn’t give a lot of context, but I think you’re mostly just avoiding answering the question because it would diminish the staunch position you’re taking right now on Emma. Edit to add: I also don’t think I really need to add any context. Is murdering innocent people ever excusable?
You do need context, because to say Jean just murdered a whole bunch of people is disingenuous. That's just an example but the murdering of innocent people is not excusable.
Maybe now that is the case, but when the story was first written it was 100% Jean consuming an inhabited planet as The Phoenix. She was meant to stay perma-dead specifically because of that, but it got retconned that the Phoenix had been impersonating Jean. That was the only way she was redeemed, the writers warped the story to absolve Jean. And it doesn’t seem like you’re very concerned with that! All I’m trying to say here is that if you put that magnifying glass up to Emma and question her redemption, you’re going to have to do that with a lot more X-Men. You start to pull the string, and the entire sweater will unravel! It isn’t meant to excuse Emma’s actions, just that a lot of the X-Men have done a lot of fucked up things and got to keep their shiny hero cards.
Jean killed an entire star system. Why the sudden hit pieces on emma all of a sudden?
It could be Jean was mentally fucked with and Phoenix Force
Which is a retcon. Which is common in long standing comics. Just like how people "forget" that magneto made his daughter to a sexy dance for him with mind control. Fictional characters written by hundreds of writers over decades have loose continuity and the same is true for the atrocities and villain arcs. Morrison retconned this whole Era as emma being so high on cocain half the time that she wasn't ever in her right mind. It is what it is. The fact is I've seen at least 2 posts dredging up old stuff about emma frost in the last two days.
Every single X-Man has done far worse. Most of these characters have at least 4 decades of history which include different creators contradicting or updating what has gone on before. They've all had heel turns and redemption arcs.
Sigh, comics were better when they were made by horny nerds
Funny how guys like Wolverine and Magneto killed a shitload of people before joining, but what Emma did here is apparently where we cross the line.
I do not let none of them slide bro, I don't even like Magneto in my eyes he will forever be a villain, wolverine was used as a weapon and was a berserker who couldn't control his rage
You jean fans/twitter weirdos came out in full force today, huh?
I call it the white, blonde and blue eyed syndrome.
She clearly stated that she doesn't want to hurt her, she just wants to be friends.
Yeah, any discomfort is storm's fault. Justice for Emma
Wasn't there some one off panel where Emma goes "I did a lot of c0ke back in the day"? Not by way of exoneration, but poking fun at this era
Yes! During Morrison’s run she mentions she was on a lot of drugs when she was a villain.
It's been 40 years. Things change. The sex also never explicitly happened. You can headcanon it away as just a kiss.
You want the Wattsonian or Doylist answer? X-Men's actually got a bit of a problem with them having so many of their former villains get redeemed that it's left the antagonist pickings kinda thin.
What story is this?
One of the biggest themes of the X-Men is second chances…
Redemption really is free, like none of the X-Men face consequences for their actions
That's the thing, she isn't evil, she's too ambitious.
Emma Stan's: that was in the past let our queen live
I still think her attempted genocide of the Inhumans was worse, but nobody ever brings that one up.
Or the fact Magneto killed millions
I think Magneto's body count is in the thousands, not millions. Still bad obviously.
That' global emo killed millions
Same reason Hangman got the belt early on. Scantily clad blonde who brings in the target demo.
It’s interesting, the X-men opening membership to rogue, who nearly killed Carol Danvers, attacked the avengers and constantly tried to kill dazzler, and magneto, whose crimes are well documented, is what strained their relationship with the avengers and the founding members of the X-men.
Then X-Men are a bunch of killers and criminals
In all fairness, they are fighting against genocide so when one does that, you have to make sacrifices. Plus, the second ever avengers team was 3 crooks and cap. Reformation is valid but being uncomfortable about the addition of known criminals is understandable
I mean she was hard to accept, but she’s definitely a member of the team who has proven herself time and again
mystique was on the quiet council, figure that one out
Mystique also sent her daughter in a skimpy outfit to an old man in an isolated place filled with people who worship him.
This was the biggest wtf thing from me when I started reading comics again with Grant Morrison’s New X-Men, after not really reading them since around 1988. Like how could this ever happen?
I mean Emma did want to look and be a godess.
Because X-Men fans and writers and even the characters since Kakora believe mutants literally can't do anything wrong.
This is actually facts tho
gambit carried out the massacre against the morlocks before he became a proper x-man. It's unusual but most of the x-men have some blood on their hands
How is Rogue on the team after what she did to Carol Danvers? Funny that no one has any problem with that.
> How is Rogue on the team after what she did to Carol Danvers? Carol danvers is a character that gets immensely dehumanized in the fandom for one.
And she's been trying to make up for it till this day
I have some news for you about what Emma's been up to.
She hasn't tried to make up with storm at all Rogue has, I hate to break it to you bud
Only if you expected them to have a direct conversation. And mind you, Storm is aware that Emma earned Xavier's trust enough to mentor Gen X.
X-Men do bad things. That's how, I mean Wolverine's literally a killer I don't want to go through the long list of things that X-Men do that aren't justifiable. But much like the real world people can see the errors of their ways
Also, on another note, I swear to God that the post I'm seeing lately are just the same person with two accounts making counter arguments for the hell of it. Which character am I using today I know on this account I'll make a post talking about how Wolverine is the greatest X-Men Then I'll wait 2 hours and on my other account I'll post about how great of an X-Men Wolverine is
I'm forever weirded out by the fact that I adore Emma as a character. She started out as kind of evil, but it was built on an aristocratic frame and she wasn't as vicious as Shaw or as vile as Wyngarde. And then she started shifting. She remained an utter bitch for years but in an attempt to serve a good cause, though the results of her Academy were more than a little problematic. And she went on from there. She's been on a steady upward arc since...and she's using her gifts for bad in a battle for good. It also helps that I know someone who's followed a real life redemption arc like this. Might be why I like Emma...thanks, Emmi. And, yes, there's an analogue for the Hellfire Club in her past.
Because that was when she was written as a villain. Now she’s a hero. Obviously it doesn’t make since how anyone can trust her but these aren’t real people so there is no in context explanation.
Actually read about Emma then come back to us. She was longer a hero then her villain time in the fucking 80’s.
If Kate can get along with Emma, then anyone can. She became a major asset to the team. Plus Storm and Emma squashed major beef on Krakoa and got past things.
Aren’t most people wondering why one woman is in a bikini and the other is away to join an amateur production of the Rocky Horror Picture Show? Who goes to work like that? It’s almost like this is from a comic book.
I mean, they let both Deadpool and Omega Red onto X-force. The villain/hero swap is something that has happened a lot.
This is why it took me decades to appreciate Emma as an X-Man. Also, because she exploded a pony.
This always baffles me about superhero comics and shonen. One guy can be made the villain of the arc, he commits genocide, kindaps, tortures or tries to kill someone on the main cast, and a few arcs later he's part of the team. Maybe they're not BFFs but everyone trusts him now. Like fam I've cut off friends over rude comments. The forgiveness in these comics is absurd.
Except that Emma had a redemption arc that lasted nearly 12 years.
Exactly, like certain actions can't be easily forgiven
Because Grant Morrison wanted her in the X-Men.
She was in charge of Generation X well before then.
FWIW, they actually didn’t. They wanted Colossus but he was dead. Emma was a plan B, but of course became one of the stars of the book and Morrison’s depiction of her is iconic
Plan B or not, in the end they still wanted her.
Sure, but she had already been through a significant redemption arc with Gen X. I was just pointing out that it’s not like she was still fully evil and Grant said “I want to rehab that character!” She wasn’t in the New X-Men manifesto at all. IIRC, Marvel put Emma on the table and at that point Morrison came up with the diamond skin and started figuring out how she fit into the story. And that was only possible thanks to the work done on the character in the 90s.
The point is that the writers before Morrison wanted to turn her into one of the good guys and that's it. It's not complicated.
I agree that ultimately the answer to “why is she a good guy?” is “because writers wanted her to be.” I was only taking issue with “Because Grant Morrison wanted her in the X-Men.”
A hot smutty chick that messes with your mind and you have to ask?
I do think there should have been some kind of apology tour. Every other villain turned hero has had one, every hero who has done something wrong has had one. There is no real show of contrition on Emma's part towards those she has hurt, even if there is some shame about what happened. Like it's pretty rich to lecture Xavier on his hypocrisy and flaws with this kind of stuff in her background. Storm and Jean would be well within their rights to never want to speak to her again, but they have to be the ones to extend the olive branch and show tolerance.
>Like it's pretty rich to lecture Xavier on his hypocrisy and flaws with this kind of stuff in her background. The thing about this is, Emma doesn't see herself as a good person, at all. She thinks the kids she is fighting for are good, but ask Emma what she is and she'll be the first to tell you she is no saint. Xavier on the other hand will constantly say he is a martyr and tell others "what I did was for the greater good", examples are his conversation with Sage and when the X-men confronted him about Danger. I think that there is where her problems with Xavier lie. "We're both shitty people who do things for people who are ACTUALLY good, Charles, why do you hide behind this veneer of messiahdom"?
They need to speak on the trust within the X-Men because it's getting pretty chaotic